You can also listen to The Land Steward Podcast on Apple Podcasts.
[0:00—Intro]
BW: The Land Steward Podcast is brought to you by the Texas A&M Natural Resources Institute. We have relatable conversations and share helpful resources for land stewards like you—no matter how you relate to the land. So, grab your hat and join us outside.
[0:28—Interview with Dr. Roel Lopez]
BW: Hey there, welcome back to the Land Steward Podcast. This is BW, your host, and I am elated to bring you part two of a two-part series for the Texas Land Trends project. This episode is also very special because today I have the honor of sitting with Dr. Roel Lopez in the studio to share his perspective with you about the Texas Land Trends Program. So welcome, Roel, officially to the Land Steward Podcast.
RL: Thank you. Appreciate being here and look forward to the conversation.
BW: So, I wanted to kind of bring you guys back into the conversation that we were having in part one. So we talked a little bit about what we see when we're driving through the state of Texas and how those lands are changing not just year over year but honestly I mean month over month as you're driving through you can see the diversity of land use and the changes over time that sometimes it's a little hard to see what exactly is happening with that land and how it's changing but at the heart of the Texas Land Trends program is so much of what Dr. Lopez has taught me and thousands of other people whether they're in his classroom or out as you know out at events, maybe they're partners, but he's constantly teaching the story of Texas Land Trends and the value of the lands that are in our state. So, here's what we're doing. The Texas Land Trends project is spearheaded by Dr. Lopez here with us. Give us a little bit of that background and how you kind of came into this project and how you've seen it change over the years since you started.
RL: Sure, the program actually was established 25, almost a little less than 25 years ago.
BW: Right.
RL: So probably about 22 plus years or so. And really the original vision, and all credit to them, was by Dr. Neal Wilkins, now with the East Foundation, and Blair Fitzsimmons, who was the former executive director of the Texas Ag Land Trust. And so Blair and Neal, Neal at that time was actually with the Texas A&M Natural Resources Institute, and Blair was actually with the American Farmland Trust.
BW: That's right.
RL: And so AFT and NRI basically came together to really capture and describe a process or an issue that we see. We see when you drive across the state, you see the changes of a working farm or ranch that's now a subdivision, a strip mall, etc. And so they felt that there was a need to sort of characterize what in fact is happening to our working lands at what rate, what places, and so forth. And part of the reason for that is there's obvious… obviously challenges with changes in working lands right or in terms of conversion, fragmentation, and so forth, but you really can't address a problem until you know what the problem is, where the is occurring at what rate, or what are the drivers, etc. That was the basic premise of the Texas Land Trends program.
BW: So, you came into this when you became the director of NRI about 10, that was 12 years ago?
RL: Yeah, so it was about 12 years ago. So, I picked up on it about halfway through the life cycle, if you will, of the program and made a few changes in terms of the focus and really the process in terms of the way the data were curated and analyzed and so forth. I don't think Neal or Blair had any idea what the Land Trends program would become. And so, at the time it was just, the intention was to do it as a singular report but based on the response it became a report that occurs every five years due to the nature of one of the data sets.
BW: Right, right, so in part one we talked a little bit about those two main data sets that we use and to your point you know you think about starting a project like this and thinking about what Texas looked like 25 years ago. Some changes probably had to be made. You had to think about how to collect data differently, what the most accurate depiction might look like now, and some of those things have changed over time. So I think that your leadership there was really key, especially in leading our GDAT, our geospatial analysis team here, and many of those people have been here since the beginning of the Institute. So, thinking about the stories that you're able to tell and how the program progressed, and then thinking about the people and the historical information that's there, those experiences that they've even seen, thinking about, you know, when this program started, how it evolved over time, how that data started to be curated differently, and then how your leadership came into play. One of the very first things that I feel like really hit me, you know, even as a landowner in Texas, I see these things all the time. And I do see the challenges that other fellow landowners have. We've seen our neighbors come in and out around us, especially in the Texas Hill Country. And one of the questions that we're always asked is, is how, what are the solutions to some of these problems? It becomes kind of a question of how do you think about this from that intergenerational land transfer? And I remember that phrase being one of the very first things that I learned from you through the Land Trends Project. And that was almost eight years ago now when I first started with the Institute. And listening to your explanation of that intergenerational land transfer was a key, I think, and definitely a linchpin in helping me understand how critical the Land Trends program is and in terms of how we use the data and how it can help people make decisions. Do you wanna talk a little bit about how you've seen that intergenerational land transfer conversation really start and what it looks like today?
RL: In terms of landowners or in terms of the program?
BW: Probably in terms of landowners, I would say. Cause, you know, I think that the program is about those landowners in a sense. And about how the decisions that they make affect the way that the land changes and moves and evolves over time.
RL: So there's a lot of different moving pieces to the Land Trends Program. The first is you alluded to the data sets used have evolved. We collect data in a better way now, or maybe it's a new data set. That also some of the challenges, data is collected differently. And so you have to make those adjustments and so forth. So there's been an evolution in terms of the information, the resolution of the information and so forth. Within the landowner demographic or community, there's also been some changes there and has continued to see those changes. And so we're just trying to sort of characterize some of those changes and again, understanding the problem and then offering a way forward in terms of a solution set. And there's another data set that we collect that informs the intergenerational transfer piece, which is the landowner survey data, and that became something we did probably about 10 or so years ago as a way to sort of bolster the Land Trends data. And so we find opportunities to marry different data sets to again better understand processes, where things are happening, the extent to the problem and really the most important question is “okay so what are you going to do about it?” And in my mind that's sort of the next iteration or next level of Land Trends is looking at ways of enhancing that story from a process perspective. So recently a lot of our reports have focused on the the value or the consequences of land loss, conversion fragmentation, and in my mind that's one reason why we've strategically pivoted in that direction. So we know we're losing a thousand acres a day. That's the latest statistic. What's the consequence of that? And so more recent reports have focused on that question.
BW: So, in your classroom settings, because you teach a couple of classes, courses every semester, does this conversation come up with the students? How do those conversations happen with those young folks?
RL: Yeah, I think the situation in Texas isn't unique to Texas. One of the greatest threats to the stewardship of natural resources is habitat loss, habitat conversion. So, I don't teach formally a lot of courses anymore per se, but I guest lecture in a fair number of courses. And the messaging related to this program is just to help their situational awareness because at some point they're going to take a major role in the future stewardship of those resources. So, they need to understand what those drivers are and what’s at stake, and Texas Land Trends helps them understand that.
BW: Yeah and to your point, probably the second biggest thing that I learned from you, in our five-year reports you taught me how to visualize those drivers, those specific drivers, those things that can be keys to us and in helping us understand and see what the trends are going to be and they've been so consistent over the last 25 years. You've done a really good job of telling the story of what that that progression looks like and how it starts and then what ends up being kind of the end result and the story of Land Trends starting with your economic health increasing, your population increasing, you want to talk a little bit about how you use that story when you're talking either with students or partners?
RL: The process in terms of land fragmentation and conversion is similar throughout the United States, probably throughout the world. And what we find here in Texas, which here recently some work in Montana, Florida, we see the same pattern as this: an increase in the economy in terms of new businesses, industries, et cetera, that result in more people. And in some cases, a greater demand on land. And so the process is a strong economy equates to more people moving to the state, as the case in Texas, followed by an increase on demand for land. It could be due to the very industries that are being developed or it could be due to a greater need for housing or everyone in Texas wants a piece of Texas and so you go out and you buy five, ten acres and build a home and so that breakup of that thousand acres then becomes smaller land. That's done by design, you know, it's easier to sell a piece of property when it's a smaller acreage. And so that's why they fragment and then eventually it moves into a non-agricultural use. It becomes a permanent homestead or commercial development, things of that sort.
BW: Right. And that is probably, that part of the progression is what we see when we're driving through the state. We see that land being converted out of ag and you know part of the crux of the data that we use is that sometimes we don't know what it's being converted out of but we do know and can make an assumption about if you move out of an ag valuation there's usually a significant reason for it. So then we see over time driving down the highway, you see that across the state, those changes in that land being converted out of the ag kind of valuation or ag productivity. I know that a big part of the Land Trends project and why we work so hard to make sure that this information is accessible and that it's something that people can understand and pick up quickly and then use to help maybe provide clarity to a situation or help to make decisions. Texas is kind of a test bed for so many of those conservation minded ideas or missions that we have while also helping people continue to live the lives that they're building now and helping us to evolve and adapt to the way that our lives look now. Would you want to talk a little bit about how you've seen the examples of Texas being kind of this testbed for the other states? You mentioned Montana, you mentioned the projects we have in Florida.
RL: Sure, one of the things, and going back to why Land Trends is, in fact, a program that was developed and continues to grow, is it's really helping our partners, whether it be a land trust, or the Farm Bureau, or cattle raisers, or pick the next person. It's given them information that they can use in advocating for programs that support their respective missions. I think we have a fair number of individuals in the state who recognize this issue or problem, and so use of the data is helpful to them in realizing that mission, and our role from a university perspective is to provide that basic applied research as well as extension outreach to fulfill our land grant mission but more importantly to fulfill the mission of those like-minded partners in the work that they do. And so there certainly has been an evolution if you will in terms of how that information has been used and continues to be used and we sort of adapt with that as we go along.
BW: One of the coolest things that I've seen just recently come out of the Geospatial Lab is this idea that we've shown maps for so many years of the land that has changed and being able to also show in the same map what land has been conserved. So that we can kind of see, you know, we talk a lot about how the closer you are to those urban centers and those metropolitan areas, the higher the demand is for the land, and you see that higher rate of fragmentation happening and that's been consistent for every report for the last 25 years. One of the things that changed in this last report iteration kind of showed us that we may not be growing in landownerships, but some of those parcels that were originally fragmented may be sort of being condensed based on the land use. So those little pieces of data, I think, have been really helpful in decision-making. If we can see the trend and where that progression is moving, where might we get ahead of that if we're thinking in terms of conservation acreage and land uses? Do you have maybe off the top of your head an example of a partner that we've worked with recently that has used that land data to think about conservation and to think about where we might look to next to prioritize wildlife habitat or maybe even thinking about endangered species work.
RL: Sure, one of the things that is a noticeable trend in Texas is we have about 250,000 landowners, 60% of them own less than 100 acres. So that number or category has increased over the last 25 years. We're seeing more and more small acreage landowners. Makes sense, your fragmentation typically goes in one direction. And so, a question that partners like an NRCS, for example, has asked is, “Where are these trends occurring?” And so we did an analysis with NRCS to basically understand question that there there's farm build programs or programs they manage or steward that basically targets small acres new landowners and so that analysis was useful to them and knowing where those hotspots were, and so that helps them and their programming. And so I think to me, the value of Land Trends is it's a piece of information that could be used by others. And that piece of information is power in the sense that knowing that trend and what the drivers are and where it's occurring and where it's likely to occur moving forward gives you some insight and making decisions using data and being strategic about those decisions.
BW: Can you talk a little bit about what you envision the next maybe 10 or 15 years of the Texas Land Trends program or even on a broader scale, Land Trends, maybe outside of Texas. How do you see that the program growing?
RL: So, two bits. The first is, we've been in conversations with other state partners and kind of convened how we have approached the stewardship of working lands through information, data, decision-making. And those programs or states have obviously expressed an interest in following similar approaches. And so the latest state partner has been Montana and it's interesting to me how striking the similarities are between Montana and Texas. Their version of the Hill Country is on the north gate of Yellowstone. So they're seeing the subdivision of formerly working lands into smaller parcels and so forth. And so there's some lessons to be learned and shared between those partners. That's the first area. The second is I think internal or within the state and I alluded to this earlier, I think using information to better quantify the consequences of fragmentation and land loss is sort of the next level from the Land Trends perspective. Phase one if I could use that term was here's the problem. Phase two is this is… this is what it means for us from a energy development perspective or what it means for us from a rural community perspective or impacts to water supply. When we start bringing in other data sets that historically we haven't really integrated into that process, it tells a more richer, a more complete picture.
BW: I love that idea, too, of thinking about being able to see a more comprehensive picture of what's going on. Sometimes, as a communicator you kind of have to know a little bit about everything to be able to tell a full story. And sometimes working in data and working in science, there are so many variables and factors involved that it's critical but it's also very challenging to tell definitively what's happening and why those things are happening. And the Land Trends program, thinking about that program, being able to take in these different data sets, the different variables and why things are happening. You mentioned Yellowstone from a cultural perspective. That, I mean, the Yellowstone series was a huge catalyst for a lot of the population growth and the visitation. Even the idea that cultural phenomenon can happen and affect these data processes that we have is exciting, it's scary, it's a huge challenge but it's something that we have to be open-minded to all the time thinking about what are the possible situations or environmental factors that are happening around some of these challenges and the changes and trends. I love also the idea of thinking about the future of Texas Land Trends maybe moving into a broader program, a nationwide Land Trends program, and to your point, something that could also be reflective worldwide as lands are changing and some of those catalysts that mirror each other. They run parallel, state to state, country to country, continent to continent. And I think that the data process that's happening here in this little town of College Station, Texas, is again so critical and so important to be able to tell the story and then to be able to think ahead and be proactive and some of those things that are important to conservation and the mission of conservation in and of itself. Is there anything else, any other thoughts off top of your head?
RL: Well so I appreciate the kind words on the implications of Land Trends. You know really the process for the program is very straightforward and it's simple. It's just really, the value’s just doing it and whether it has national implications or what have you, I think other states that I could learn from that or there are states that are already working on that space. This certainly is just a first step and I think as we get further along just understanding the importance of monitoring an important piece of our state's economy and ecological well-being which is the health and the continued working of our farms, ranches, and family forests. That's the bumper sticker, if you will, for Texas Land Trends.
BW: Yeah. And I love that as being kind of a bookend and thinking about the value of those open space and working lands and the ecosystem services that you've taught me a whole lot about, and many other land stewards about. And this kind of this idea of ecosystem services that has been around for decades and how that comes to light and comes into play in the Land Trends story. So our listeners, for the most part, they're land stewards, whether they own land or they manage land, or they're a part of some sort of program. They listen to the Land Steward podcast to learn from us, to get some ideas, some different perspectives, or anything that you would wanna leave the listeners with today?
RL: Well, I really appreciate the 25 years of support from our partners and folks that have found the Texas Land Trends Program to be useful to them, we would like to continue to provide that information, that service, if you will, in realizing our land grant mission, both from a research perspective, but of course, from an extension outreach perspective as well, and teaching in the classroom, teaching the next generation of land stewards.
BW: Yeah. Thank you so much for officially being on the Land Steward podcast. It's an honor to have you in the studio with us, especially as we think about this 10th episode as being this beautiful bookend for the Land Trends story. So thank you so much for sharing your perspective with us and talking to us about what the future of the Texas Land Trends program looks like.
RL: All right, thank you for the invitation.
BW: Yeah.
RL: You guys take care. Bye-bye.
[23:27—Flywire Store Announcement]
JL: Hey Land Stewards, it’s Jay Long, one of the podcast’s biggest fans. We've got some great news from the Texas A&M Natural Resources Institute that we've been eager to share with you. After a year of planning and designing, we're thrilled to officially announce the launch of our brand-new map store. So, whether you're a researcher, educator, conservationist, landowner, history buff or just somebody who loves Texas, this store is specifically designed for you. We've put together a collection of high-quality, data-rich maps that tell the story of Texas through land, water, history, and even energy. Some of the featured maps that are on the store now are: the Texas Ecoregions map, which is a guide to the state's ecological diversity, the iconic Texas Night Lights Satellite map, and the Texas Historical Cattle Trails map that’s featured in museums across the state. These maps are more than just visuals. They're tools that reflect decades of data, conservation efforts, and Texas heritage. If you're ready to explore, head over to nri.tamu.edu/store and shop the full collection. All the purchases are hosted securely through Texas A&M's Flywire platform, and all the proceeds go directly to our Geospatial Lab here in College Station, Texas. Thank you guys for your continued support, and here's to seeing Texas in a whole new way.
[25:04—Outro]
BW: Hey there, it’s BW. I just wanted to say thanks for listening. We are so grateful for those of you who have been with us since episode one, and for those of you who continue to join us every single month. We’re also really grateful for the experts and partners who come on and share an immense amount of wisdom for the land stewards in Texas and beyond. So, remember to subscribe to The Land Steward Podcast when you have a second and shoot us a note if you ever have any questions about the resources and research that we share right here on the podcast. Until next time, we’ll talk soon.