Episode 6 - Small Acreage Management with Chase Brooke

[0:00]  

BW: I'm gonna talk a little bit about your background.

CB: Yeah, yeah.

BW: At some point I'm supposed to do an intro and say, welcome to the Land Steward podcast. Chase Brooke.

[Intro Music]

CB: …and I was like, “Ah. San Angelo State Park: where shade is for the weak and the rocks are for rattlesnakes.” I was like, that's a motto for something.

BW: [laughs] For something and you just came up with it.

CB: And then just doodled on and went down a mesquite bottom.

BW: And it's even more impressive that you remembered that. I feel like when you have those like moments of clarity or those like creative moments when you're outdoors that just boost your mental health… [rustling] [laughs] Okay, so you have a notebook, really cool.

CB: Yeah, it was one of those, I mean, hell. And then that next morning, I'm not… I've slowly just become embracing like my artsy-fartsy side cause I was like hiking and I had my binoculars and stuff. And then I was like, “Oh, I just thought of a poem.” I was just like, jot it down. I'm like, okay.

BW: Done. Out of the brain.

CB: Who knows where it goes, but…

BW: Yeah.

[1:20]

BW: BW here. As you can tell, Chase and I jumped right into this conversation. He is just one of those people that is on fire all the time and very passionate about the things that he does. So, from the moment he walked in the door into the recording studio, he was elated to share with you guys about the very diverse and dynamic interactions he has with new to the land and small acreage landowners. So, I wanted to pause right here to give you guys some context about some of his background. We're gonna get into this a little bit further into the podcast, but... at least this way you've got a little bit of this in the back of your mind. So, Chase earned his bachelor's and master's degrees from Texas A&M and is currently pursuing his PhD in rangeland wildlife and fisheries management here at A&M as well. So, he is one of my fellow doctoral students of the community who is constantly questioning why are we doing this? I'm just kidding, it's all for a good cause. So, his research right now is focused on the impacts of burning woody plant debris and how to reduce any long-term disturbances on our rangelands which is just another just a giant conversation about I know that we've done these things for a very long time but it's begging the question of just because we've done it for a very long time does it mean that it's still the best way to go about doing things? So, Chase is in that world of research right now. In addition to that, he currently works as a small acreage wildlife management program specialist with AgriLife Extension and the RWFM department, which is why he's joining us today. So, he conducts programs for both new and small acreage landowners all over Texas to really help them figure out strategies for stewarding their land and then he connects them with the resources and the expertise that they need based on the context and their goals, their economic bottom line, whatever it is they need - Chase is their guy. So, for the last two semesters he's also joined my natural resources communications class because of the many different, I would say, like varieties of communication that he kind of has to just be ready to engage with. So, he helps more than anything, the grad students who take my communications class and make sure that they understand the challenges that come about for small acreage management, which is I would say like this new and up-and-coming learning I would say feel almost like a research field for land management because it is becoming more and more frequent that we're seeing these small acreage properties pop up. Or really more so that we're seeing these larger tracts of land become fragmented and then they have multiple land managers who have very unique perspectives and goals with their slice of Texas. So okay, wanted to give you guys some context for that, back to the interview.

[4:36]

BW: That's awesome. That's great. So how often are you traveling?

CB: I’ll give you the extension answer: it depends. So, like this month has been a lot. Some months I might do one, maybe two overnight trips in a month, and a handful of like day out and back kind of trips. When I look at how I travel, I try to be very purposeful in it, right? So obviously I'm in College Station today, but when I'm in College Station, I'm in College Station 100%. Like I'm here. I've got meetings, I'm doing this podcast, I guess, lectured for a class, I'm going to get lunch with some people, you know, and then this evening, I'm catching up with some of my buddies. And then I've got programs tomorrow and Saturday, then I drive home. The blessing and the curse of building your own schedule comes you know, this is something I learned back when I was a county agent was like, okay, if I get to build my own schedule it's at my benefit or my peril right?

BW: Mhmm.

CB: And so really looking at okay, where am I going? How am I traveling? You know, am I traveling to two places close to each other? Can I try to mash together a couple of different things into one trip? And then that way, when I'm traveling, I'm traveling, and when I'm home I'm able to focus on the things that are not travel, right. You know, because you know highway time is great for creativity and thinking and I get to call everybody but you know but it's also one of those times where it's like it's thinking time but it's not productive time.

BW: Yeah. And like your day today, just knowing everything you've already accomplished and it's 11:40, you've already done an entire day’s worth of work and you still made time to come in here and talk to us for the podcast to share your story to share your expertise to be in that mind space and then you're still making time the rest of the day for other people in your life like that that's huge to be able to compartmentalize in such a way that you can be present. I want to talk a little bit about your background. You have a lot going on in your background, but you also have a lot that's happening right now. You're working, you're also in school, you're carving out your direction for your dissertation in the middle of all of that. Which I also think is really lovely too, because you get to, in real time, take what you're learning out there on the road and apply it to what you're working towards and who you want to be as an expert in this field, which I love. You're also making time to invest in the students in a lot of different ways. Most of the people who listen to the podcast know that I teach 321 in RWFM. So, Chase is just for those of you who are listening, he is one of our extension specialists who is partnering with our grad student group this semester to help them become subject matter experts on small acreage landowners and some of the challenges that they face. And the class is really meant to help the students not only become subject matter experts, but to also be able to find a way to take those challenges and understand the resources that exist and then figure out how to build a product or something around that that people can use today. That's something that hopefully builds capacity for you so that when you're on the road, when you see these challenges that are happening, you have another tool in your toolbox. From a teaching standpoint that has been an amazing experience to watch you work with them and to watch them evolve over the semester from this group of students who didn't quite know what they were jumping into and to now, who I would say is like 70% of the way to becoming accidental subject matter experts of your area of study. [laughs]

CB: And don't forget that in that initial contact call too I was on the road and actually took that video conference at a truck stop on I-20…

BW: [laughs] You did, you did.

CB: And was just walking around in circles with them. [laughs]

[8:42]

BW: Yeah, they got the vibe, like immediately.

CB: Yeah, yeah, well, and talking about the class, what's also fun from my perspective, I mean, in one, like the reason I'm in Extension is I like teaching. Like I like educating, I like helping people connect the dots, and especially in ways that, you know, I mean, it directly impacts their lives, right? Like when I can when I'm able to give people advice because you know, in Extension we're just… we're professional advice givers. Being able to help them connect those dots and then be able to do something better, do something in the quote unquote right way, better way, and then see their success is just so cool. And what was fun for this class in the discussion we had today they presented their kind of draft final product, and you know we're giving some feedback on it and what was very fun is, we were basically having to retrain them to not think about all the writing rules that they were given. You know, this is, you know, an extension publication is the authoritative source, right, you know, and it needs to be approachable to the layman. It needs to be based in research, but not read like research.

BW: Right.

CB: You know, a random small acreage sheep and goat producer, you may not necessarily have the bandwidth or really, you know, the motivation to go and read through the scientific literature, right? At the end of the day, especially when we look at these, who these small acreage and new landowners are and their time commitments, they tend to work in town. They have a full, they have a full-time job. Oftentimes, if they're non-resident landowners, and so they only get to their property on the weekends or intermittently, you know, with all this competition on their time. I mean, some people really like reading research papers, don't get me wrong. But they go to these extension publications as the short form bulletin of, you know, what we know. What we know, how can I use this?

BW: Yep.

CB: It was very, very fun to just kind of work with them and just like really walk them through that.

[10:59]

BW: Okay so we've talked to a whole lot about sort of carving out your direction and a little bit about how you spend your time. Do you want to talk a little bit about your background? I know you're a die-hard Texas A&M degree guy, so when did you start?

CB: Well, that's a, I'm going to make a short story long, we're pretty good at that in extension.

BW: Great.

CB: Okay. So, I mean, I would say for my background. I… fun fact I'm an eighth generation Texan. I had a great grandmother who was super into genealogy and traced my family history on my mother's side all the way back to horse thieves from Kentucky. So, I come by my disposition normally, or honestly, I guess, but yeah, and so we have a family ranch down in Coryell County near a little community called Pearl. Home of the Pearl Bluegrass Festival, first Saturday of every month. Super fun. In the old schoolhouse. But we have managed that property for coming on 25 years next year. And you know, really through my high school years, that's where I mean, I really kind of cut my teeth on land management right? And really also grew in, and to a certain degree I think we still see ourselves as new landowners of that property, right? You know there's always things to learn and to know and to grow into, but you know that was, you know growing up putting in fence, pounding holes in limestone with a rock breaker, and managing that land. We really, our goal with it is to try to restore that property into kind of into a native range land ecosystem. You know trying to shift it back to a grass dominated system we've been burning it since 2014 regularly and trying to really integrate a lot of these conservation practices back onto the land and kind of reintroduce a lot of our native historical ecosystems. And to get there, we use kind of like the Aldo Leopold axe, cow, plow, fire, gun. I mean, we don't always own our own livestock, but we've got neighbors, we've got people and friends we work with that when the land needs grazing, animals are on it.

BW: Yeah.

[13:21]

CB: You know when we've got thatch build up in pastures. All right we go and we patch burn it. You know if we've got brush piles how do we safely dispose of those? And so, you know that wildlife management, that conservation experience really built in through my younger years and obviously we still own the property. I still get out there as much as I can. It's been a very fun dynamic moving into my role and extension and then suddenly having some of the family recognize the expertise and experience that can come with that, and we've had a lot of fun keeping that property up.

BW: I do have a quick question. So how many generations are managing the ranch right now?

CB: Right now, two. So, my dad and his siblings were the original ones who bought into it. And so, we are… me and my brother and my 28 first cousins.

BW: [laughs] Oh my goodness.

CB: Yeah, so to give you an idea of my family - so take the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding, make the family Mexican, that is my family.

BW: Okay. [laughs]

CB: Just like in truth and documentary form. You know I have a very rich and diverse family. And, you know, we're really blessed to have a real tight knit group like that.

 BW: Having that piece of land and being involved and being brought into that process even 25 years ago, do you think that that sort of shaped and defined the way you made decisions about your future?

[14:55]

CB: I think it did. And I think where it really came in is just context, right? Like when I go to talk to a producer and I say, "Hey, you should put in some cross-fencing." It's not just from an academic, "Well, that would be nice. You know, it'll help you because A, B, C, X, Y, Z send me $23 whatever." So much is like understanding that, yeah, building that fence is gonna suck. It's gonna be hard. It's gonna be sweaty, you know, you may not have the right equipment to do it, but at the end of the day, it's worthwhile, right? It can help you meet those goals, and then here are some programs some ways that you maybe offset some of the costs or things like that because it sometimes it's very easy to get caught up in the idea but lose sight of the practicality. And so that's where I try to stay relatively grounded and just understanding that it's always easy on the PowerPoint. It's always easy on the PowerPoint. But when you're the landowner, the producer, and you went to this extension workshop or you read this publication, you go out in your field and you're hard charging, “I am going to remove all this unwanted woody plant encroachment, you know all this brush that's come in,” and then you're standing out in your field and you've got a pair of loppers and a chainsaw and 30 acres of mixed juniper in front of you it hits a little different, right? I mean and I see a very significant part of my job is being able to relate that, right? Like it's not always easy and anyone who tells you it's easy it's probably lying, or you know…

BW: Hasn’t done it.

CB: - hasn't done it. And so, I think that experience has helped just kind of ground me in what that looks like. I mean, I will also be the first to tell you I didn't grow up with livestock production. You know, that's not my expertise. You know, I don't, the economics of cattle ranching are just… in the same way that the wildlife management was a part of my upbringing, you know, the economics of livestock production weren't. I've taught myself that, but I'll also be the first to tell you that, part of recognizing where I am well-read and understand the information I have and where the science is, etc., it's also just as much knowing that I am not the right person for some things, right? There are other people who are. They might be in extension, they might not be, right? But yeah.

BW: Being able to connect the people who are standing in front of you who've got boots on the ground to those right people is, I would say a huge part of your job too, is just knowing, being aware of resources and people that are out there, whether that's a publication or a person or a phone call or a site visit, whatever that is, that's huge.

CB: Yeah.

[17:38]

BW: So, you sort of grew up on the land. I guess were you… would you consider yourself an absentee?

CB: So, I'm and I'm gonna I'm gonna quibble a little bit here. We were nonresident landowners. So, and this is this is my little soapbox that I'm you know I'm the old man shouting at the clouds about this. But you know I actually think we do a lot of new landowners a disservice calling them by default absentee landowners if they don't live on the property. Now, when we look at the literature and how that's actually defined, what is an absentee landowner? Someone who doesn't live on their land but also is not actively involved in the management of it, right?

BW: Okay.

CB: When we look at a lot of people who move onto these properties or who purchase land, some of them are absentee landowners, right? I mean, there's a certain category of people who are. But I think by and large, a lot of them, honestly, I just, I call them nonresident landowners because they don't live there full time, but they care. They put a lot of time and effort and money and thought into how they manage their land and the outcomes they want from it. And I think sometimes when we look at something like “absentee landowner” that might be, you know, technically correct but if I were to tell you you're an absentee whatever, that's it's a negative feeling, right?

BW: Yeah, it has a negative connotation.

CB: It makes you, you know, like they're, you know, if you're an absentee parent, that's not a great thing. If you're an absentee mentor, right? You know, and so when we're trying to engage new landowners and we're trying to make them feel like they can be a part of this larger system and this larger conservation philosophy - you know and especially when we look at an agency like extension where we're trying to bring people in and then teach them and then let them go forth and prosper - we're doing ourselves a disservice if we're making people there when people's first impression is suddenly that oh, I'm a what? You're calling me what? Right?

BW: Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate this soapbox conversation because it is, I think it is really important how we frame our conversations, how we talk about the way that people choose to live their lives and more often than not they're living away from the land, and they've had to find and build a livelihood away from the land. That's the reality of I think many landowners in Texas and to your point, calling them or I guess framing it as absentee landowners feels bad. It doesn't make you feel great, it makes you feel like you're doing something wrong. So, I do appreciate that, I like that the change in language and how we connect with people who have built a livelihood away from the land and are coming back as they can and as they can be present.

[20:39]

BW: One of the things that teaching this communications course has taught me - I feel like you learn so much even as you're teaching, probably learn more that way - it was kind of, I don't know, it was almost like a revelation for me because I realized that this group of students or this generation, which is Gen Z now, you know, younger than 26, I guess, who are in the classroom now, whether they're undergrad or grad, to me they've almost become the first generation who I've interacted with that has seen I guess the consequences of being completely separated from the land and not having access. Whereas, let's talk three generations back. So, Gen X had maybe they were part of the first generation that their parents are on the land a hundred percent of the time and they left and went to school else elsewhere, they decided to build their life differently and away from the land and maybe it was partial. Then you had millennials who were probably majority born and built their life away from the land. And then you have Gen Z, and a lot of their perspectives in the classroom are what I used to think was kind of a… if they were part of the land or if they had managed land or if they were part of that conversation, it used to feel like an “us versus them”. People who own land and have land and have access, and people who don't, and maybe have less of an education about it. And I realized that they care so much about the people who don't have access, because they've seen what those consequences feel like when they feel like they missed out. Maybe they came into the department, and they were all of a sudden given these opportunities to go out to open space land or private land. They've been in I would even say educational settings with youth with younger kids who have never been fishing who have never set foot on a private ranch like for example Long Acres Ranch, which is one of our partners. And they see this void that they know that they have an opportunity to fill. And all of a sudden I realized the way they think is not “us versus them,” it's “us for them”. And finding ways to your point to have context to understand the value of access and knowledge and awareness and then bringing that to people who can also use it, or who can be nonresident landowners and encourage them in a really rich way that says you can do both. And you can steward this land and create opportunities that maybe you weren't given earlier in life or maybe the generation before you didn't have an option to take advantage of. So, I really like that soapbox.

CB: Yeah, and I think you know broadly speaking one of the things I always like to bring into it… you know I've got a couple a couple thoughts that that kind of spun off of what you were just saying. I don't know if you see the little hamster wheel turning, but he sure is getting tired. But you know, when talking about the phrasing, you know, the way we approach the words we use. How are we talking to people so we can effectively share our message about conservation and about how we use the land we have and how we manage it. You know, for an example in the 321 class today in the draft publication, one of the phrases that came in was like, "Hey, you know, land fragmentation is a bad thing. Habitat loss, you know, is causing issues, you know. As small acreage landowners, we should, you know, work together to fix this." And we had a little conversation where I was like, "Yeah, I agree. Land fragmentation is an issue, but if you're a small acreage landowner who reads this, do you want to start that opening paragraph with, “You know what, you're a part of a problem.”

BW: Oh, yep.

[24:35]

CB: Right? You know, and it's just, it's not bad. I want, you know, not ragging on them by any means, but it's just it's a way of thinking, right? It's not just how do we present this in a way that's understandable, but it's relatable. Yeah. And not just relatable, but applicable. The soul of this paper is about how do we find information? How do we consider whether it applies for our property? And then what can we glean from it that is actually usable, right I mean, I used to work with a lovely couple when I was a county agent that they had a lavender farm. Really nice farm, you know, they… it was on like five acres. They had I mean, they filled the entire property except for where their house and their barn was with lavender. Smelled wonderful.

BW: I was about to say that kind of sounds amazing.

CB: It was so cool. They were the coolest people. You know one of the challenges was that they had a production mentor who's based out of Washington, right? Great advice, great information, you know it was just the translating how do practices in Washington State translate to North Texas, right? You know, and just, and you know, we had very clayey soils, right? So, you have the way you plant has to be different. The way you go through your production is going to look different. You know, and how can you kind of pick and choose the parts that fit and understand that not everything else will. I did also have a deal where you know when you talked about the generations and how they interacted with the land, and it brought me back to a quote from one of my old board members on one of the county farm bureaus I served on. And he told me just one day I think we were on a trip somewhere he was like, “You know when I was a kid we were embarrassed to be from the land in the country because it meant you were poor. Nowadays it's a point of pride because it means you have the means to own and manage land,” right? I mean and that just such a monumental shift in cultural perspective. And I mean that he was probably 82 years old? You know and he's farmed, been around for you know since his childhood. I think that's you know one of the reasons I like working with small acreage and new landowners and I, they are separate but they are often together right? You know new landowners being generally like less than 10 years on their property, small acreage, by my job title being 100 acres or less by the practical realities of land management, it depends on where you are, right? If you're right outside of Georgetown, Texas, if you've got 20 acres, you've got a ranch. If you're outside of Alpine and you've got less than a section, you've got small acreage, right?

BW: That's a really good point.

[27:23]

CB: And oftentimes they're very conflated, right? And I think the overlap on that Venn diagram is much closer to, you know, there's a very healthy overlap. And I think that when we look at how we engage with these landowners one of the biggest things to keep in mind too and things you know I do a lot of presentations to these new landowners, these small acreage landowners. I also am trying to do a lot of training for natural resource professionals and better understanding who these people, who these new landowners are. And aside from the only correct answer of it depends because everybody's different and you will have all sorts of kinds. But I think by and large one of the biggest things I always have to remind people is that on the land management side and on the professional side sometimes you get caught up in just the nitty-gritty of the questions –

BW: The technicalities.

CB: - the technicalities, the things that you know, can kind of take up time. But I always like to remind folks that the people who are buying this land, the people who are buying land in this day and age, and at the price that land is, and that's a whole other topic we can talk about, is basically, this is the realization of their life dream. Like, this is the point they have worked 30, 40 years towards. And they are sinking significant amounts of money into being able to realize this dream of being able to own land. To be connected to nature, to be able to have some kind of either agricultural activity or conservation connection, whatever that may be. And so when we engage with these people we you know… and oftentimes it's one of those that you know you sign on the dotted line at the mortgage office, you know, or you leave the farm credit bank, you get on the property, gate closes behind you, and you stand, and they're standing there like, "Wow, what do I do now?" Right? Which is a total, I mean, heck, when I bought my house, that's how I felt, you know, and, and so it's one of those things, it's like, we need to remember that these people are motivated. They are very motivated. And why I like working with a lot of new landowners, by and large, I always like to say, they might have, new landowners might have some weird ideas, but they're willing to try. Kind of my teaching philosophy is I can take people who are passionate and make them knowledgeable. I can not make knowledgeable people passionate, right? And so, you know, know, it's about really giving this information and putting it forward and in front of these new landowners in a way that they have options.

BW: Yeah.  

[30:08]

CB: I don't work for the part of the government that gets to tell anyone what to do. It's why people call me back, I think. But, you know, by and large, it's really, you know, what do people want? They want options. And we need to make sure that we provide options that are conservationally sound, but also recognize the principles of the people who are moving in, right? I always like to jokingly use this example of like, I don't really care if you want to come in and raise commercial beef cattle, or if you want to raise organic free range left-handed cabbage, like you do you. It's 2024, right? It's your property, right? You, you do with it what you will. I'm here to help you figure out how to do it in a way that supports the resilience of your property. That helps you as a landowner, as an operator, be able to do it in a way that is sustainable, that you're passionate about, and that meets your goals. Because at the end of the day, if you like what you do, if your property meets those goals that you set for it, you know, when things are good, you're rocking and rolling. And when things are bad, you're gonna stick with it. Right, it's when we have that mismatch and people aren't very well connected or enjoying what they're doing. And then suddenly you have a year like 2022 come in and you have no water. You know, that's when you start seeing a little bit of that, when people lose that dream. How do they act, how do they react, and then what are the outcomes of that from a conservation standpoint? Like how much good are we doing if people give up when times get tough? And that's from a social context, it's from a emotional context, an economic one, you know do they need to make money, do they not need to make money, you know if they don't have water what do you do? I mean these are all huge questions. But it all comes down at the most basic level of just as a landowner, what do you want to do? What do you like doing? And what is the means to that end? Right? And how do you get there in the next 1, 5, 10, 20 years? So, you know, that's my entire like job philosophy in about, I don't know, four or five minutes. Once I got back on the train tracks.

[32:22]

BW: I think that's brilliant, first. I do want to go… let's go high level. So, you travel a lot. How many landowners do you think that you see in a matter of a month or two?

CB: It really depends, it really does I know it's such a cop-out answer.

BW: No, that's okay. It does. It's extension. It's based on need, too.

CB: But really, because it depends on where I'm going and where I'm presenting, who I'm interacting with, and what I'm doing. So, for example, I've been working with a team of other folks in the Range Wildlife and Fisheries Management Department and with AgriLife Extension doing a lot of new landowner education and conservation practitioner trainings, right? On this exact topic, like who are these new, you know, especially the ex-urban landowners, right? Where the city folks moving into the country, how are they different from traditional clientele, etc. And so, on a workshop like that we might pull on the landowner workshop day about 30 people. I have a conference I host every summer, the small acreage new landowner conference in Farmersville that, you know, we pull maybe 100, 100 plus folks. You know, I've gone to county programs where we had eight really motivated people. I've been to ones where, you know, I've spoken at meetings where we had over a hundred, right? It just, and I think it depends on the community. It depends on the location. And I think a part of this is that there are, you know, a lot of people, agents and folks always like to ask, you know, how do I get new landowners in my programs? How do I get small acreage people to show up to workshops? And I don't know. I mean, I'll be honest. I have not found that secret sauce yet. I, I mean, maybe you gotta put your left shoe on first and then the right one, spin around three times, clap five times and, you know, send, you know, burn sage in your fireplace or something like that. I have no earthly idea, but that being said, to give a more useful answer, I think it really comes down to how we market, right? It's into those, as you alluded to, it's in the soft skills. Like, how do we figure out how we're marketing to people? And extension is, I would say, I told you, there'd be no hot takes. This is a hot take. But, you know, extension is really good at marketing to people who already know about us. Right? And there are a number of reasons why and I'm not, and I'm not saying we're right or wrong or, you know, upside down on it by any means, but it's just kind of a fact of life, like the way that we are set up. You know, if you're not on the county agent’s newsletter, you don't know about the program.

BW: If you're not in the circle, you don't know, yeah. And do you feel like that circle is getting smaller every day?

[35:10]

CB: I think it varies, right? Because things like social media give us such a step up in some ways and how we can reach people. I mean, I also kind of go back to my early extension days, you know, we're learning about why volunteers are important. It's because they're force multipliers, right? And for me, when I was a county agent, you know, being able to tap one or two of those new, those small acreage producers who are really plugged in in their communities, they are the ones who can wave that flag and stand on top of the hill and sing the high heavens for you.

 BW: [laughs] Yes.

CB: You know, like, I can only ever be in one place at a time. And so, it's all about how can we build people who can cheerlead for us?

BW: Yeah, you build ambassadors.

CB: Yeah, we build ambassadors. And I think, it's just a how are we being creative in what we're doing? Not everything is going to work. But at the same time, time, you know, if we fail a thousand times, but succeed wildly with one, you know, is that calculus working, right? I mean, and there's no right answer on it, but I do think it's a matter of just, being able to be present, right? And especially when I was an agent and carried through to this day, community involvement is such a huge part of this job.

BW: A hundred percent.

[36:35]

BW: So, you’re kind of, your role is, what's your official title, extension specialist?

CB: So, like everything, it's very long and unwieldy. I am the, I'm the extension program specialist for small acreage and wildlife.

BW: Oh, okay.

CB: Now it doesn't say management, because I guess they didn't want to add another word, but I add the word management because that's what it is.

BW: That's what I felt like was missing, the thing that was coming next. Okay, that makes sense.

CB: I'll bring it up in my performance review.

BW: Okay, yeah.

CB: Yeah, please add.

BW: Or maybe just arbitrarily, “May I add?”

CB: Yeah, or I'll just get a pen and all my business cards.

BW: [laughs] There you go.

CB: You know. But in that role, really, where kind of my job duties line up is because I feel like that was your next question like on the tip of your tongue.

BW: Yeah, I want to talk about your role. I want to talk about the demand on your role and you've talked a lot about I guess, to me, thematically it's that you're available, you have to be interruptible, you have to be creative, you're kind of on call. You're on call for whoever picks up the phone with a broad potential of areas or topic areas that they may ask you about and may approach you about and you have to, again going back to your earlier point, you either have to figure it out do the mathematics if that's what it ends up being that afternoon, have the information off the top of your head because you're in it you're immersed every day, or connect them with somebody who can. So, you are for the state of Texas, and probably even a little bit beyond, for those whose networks branch out….

CB: Well, I did have that one publication at South Dakota State University, so I have, you know. [laughs]

BW: [laughs] You end up being this really critical role, I think for a lot of different parts of extension, land ownership, wildlife management, because at the end of the day, you're working with probably the most amount of landowners for your area of expertise compared to other specialists who may be more specific in their area. You have to, you're almost on call all the time.

[38:39]

CB: And it's really like, you know, and a lot of the contacts I get that are not face-to-face at programs are by email. And so, and then it's just a matter of, you know, if it's a landowner, you know, kind of triage: okay, is this my wheelhouse? If yes, okay, answer, you know, and release, right, you know, and if it's not my wheelhouse, refer them to someone who is, you know. But the thing I always do, and I think this is a common pitfall of, you know, some folks is like, I always make sure that that county agent is looped, right? Because you never know who is reaching out that might find an immense benefit in that local office. And then it helps that local agent know that there are these landowners in the county that are active and managed and have questions and can show up to programs, right? And that county agent is going to know way more about that county than I ever could, right? I mean, I cover you know, everything north of Austin from Louisiana to New Mexico, except for the times I don't.

BW: Right.

CB: Right. And so, when we look at 254 counties in Texas, every single one is going to be ecologically different. Yeah, every single one is going to have different degree of use standards for that agricultural use valuation. I cannot memorize all that, but I know who can. I know. I know who does and who works with that, right? And those county agents, they know everyone there is to know.

CB: And that's just a part of that conversation and really more than anything just opening people up to… it reminds me of an old, of a saying I've heard once, right? You know, everybody knows what we know, right? A good chunk of us, if we're, you know, if we're the introspective naval gazing sort, I guess we know what we don't know. But you get in trouble when you don't know what you don't know, right? And so that's where I see myself is on that last bit. It's like you, generic landowner number three, you are coming here as an expert in something, whether it's IT, whether it's, you know, I had a guy once who sold a beef jerky plant in Oklahoma and wanted to buy land, right? And so, like that kind of person is successful, right? You know, and so it's just that they don't have the conceptual knowledge of what they should be looking into. And so that's where that connection comes in.

[41:16]

BW: I like that idea too because I think one of the values that you pose is helping people be more specific about what they want, be more specific about what they need, and in that you create a strategy. You help them start to think strategically. You may not have all the specific details for that area or who that maybe you do. In some cases, you probably know more than [laughs] you think you do. But I do think that that's kind of where it starts is getting specific. People to your point, your earlier point, they are fulfilling a dream and usually it's a life-long dream to be out there. They the gate closes behind them and they're like “what do you do now?” and that in a sense is a little overwhelming. It's overwhelming when you have lots of options, you have a lot of voices around you who tell you what things you could take advantage of, how to use it, what you should do, what you shouldn't, and then you have people who are subject matter experts or people who can help them organize their thoughts. Organize the strategy that could be what their ideal relationship with the land could look like. And I think that that is a tremendous value for landowners, especially new landowners. So, we have, we've been talking about your role a little bit about where you came from and why you think the way that you do, which I think is really interesting. And it's exciting and hopefully a comfort for landowners who have an opportunity to connect with you. You come from the land, and you understand that the nuances are limitless in this field. So, I know you've been answering questions on it. It depends, but that truly embodies, I feel like, just our approach to a lot of things. We need more information to be able to give people specific advice on things. But that strategy and that vision, I think, is where it starts and getting people to get specific about what they want and what they need in those challenges. I do have some stats here from the –

CB: Hit me with ‘em.

BW: - Texas Land Trends program. So, we had our last status update, which is very cool to think about because it was from 2017. So, we just now got in the new data.

CB: Yeah, new census of ag released. For those of y'all number people it's freaking awesome. You got graphs!

BW: [laughs] Yeah, we're starting to put together the new status update for Texas Land Trends which is a report that is used far and wide. No pressure on the Natural Resources Institute, we're putting that together. So, one of the stats that we had is that since 1997, about a thousand new farms and ranches have been added every year. That is mind-blowing.

CB: In Texas?

BW: Yes. I can't even wrap my mind around what that might look like, and obviously it's not that new land has been added to Texas, it's that Texas is changing. And you mentioned the word “fragmentation” earlier. And we know that sometimes or most of the time when people come to you as new landowners, as small acreage landowners in particular, historically their parcel of land was probably not originally as small as it is the day that they come to you.

[44:33]

BW: BW again, I wanted to contextualize land fragmentation for you guys because this is such an important topic, and I don't want anything to get lost in this episode. So, as we've talked about, Texas is 95 % privately in and you can find that anywhere you look on the internet. Anyone who's involved in natural resources or in private land stewardship, that is a statistic that stands out, I think, to everyone. Sometimes in Land Trends, we also talk about 84 % of that privately owned land being working lands or those family farms, forests, and ranches. And even further, we talk a whole lot about who owns that land. And I think the latest stat that we had is that it's around 250,000 private landowners who actually own that open space or working land, the family farms, ranches, and forests. And to think about the overall population of Texas, which is around 29 million, right? Just like every day increasing exponentially. To think about 250,000 people out of 29 million, that is remarkable, scary in some ways, just incredible also to think that we can work with that small of a segment of population of Texas to ensure that such a huge part of our state and the land that covers the majority of the state is managed well and remains sustainable and healthy. And then when we think about what's on the flip side of that… so we know 250,000 people own, about, you know, 84% of those working lands. Then that leaves us with about 29 million people living in just, what is it, 16% of the rest of the state, which is mostly in that Texas Triangle area. So, as we talked about, you know, again, 95% is privately owned, and more and more people are moving here every year. As our population increases, though, in those big urban centers like the Texas Triangle, Houston, Austin area, DFW, the demand for the surrounding rural land grows every day and this has been driving land market values up and incentivizing private landowners to sell or subdivide their properties to developers. One square mile of working land is lost every day in Texas, according to TPWD. And I do know that with the next five-year iteration of the Texas Land Trends report coming out, that number is actually larger. So due to the factors in population growth, urban sprawl, high land market values increase in Texas, tax burdens and some of these generational shifts we're seeing, we know that the land is being converted at an astronomical rate. So, over the last 25 years, we've lost more than 2 .2 million acres of rural land at an increasing rate. So, all of this has led to this increase in small acreage farms that I just mentioned to Chase. So, we're seeing those larger properties be subdivided and sold off so that we can get more farms and ranches and decreasing average acreages. So, from 1997 to 2017, small ownerships increased by almost 39,000 new farms and ranches, or about a 37% increase. So, while this might have a negative impact on wildlife and their habitats, it presents like a really unique opportunity for more new landowners than ever before who are seeking expertise from people just like Chase to figure out how to steward their land. Okay, back to the questions.

[48:49]

What resources do you feel like those new landowners, small acreage landowners, are asking for the most? What do you feel like is one of the biggest challenges that they have in getting started?

CB: That's a good question. And I really think when we look at these, these new landowners and the resources they're needing and the questions they're asking, you know, one of the things with the asking questions too is you have to understand sometimes the real question is buried under another one.

BW: Right. Right.

CB: And it takes a little bit of just conversational investigating.

BW: Right.

CB: But I think a lot of times what it comes down to... I mean, I would boil it down into three broad categories. But I think it kind of comes back to where do I go for information? I think what do I do with my land? And then I think the last one is how do I do what I want to do on my land?

BW: Right.

CB: And so, when we think these three big conceptual questions - and each one of those would be a terrible two-page document because it would be so vague it isn't useful - but I think a big part of that is just, again, understanding where a lot of new landowners are coming from. And some come in with all the information they need. They're typically not the ones who reach out to extension, I'll be honest. But I think it's a matter of, you know, and one of the things I'm trying to work on is okay. So, what kind of information can we have as almost like a bundle or a packet? I don't like… like I've thought about it in a sense of a book, but I realize people don't want a book. They just want the chapter, right, the chapter that applies to them.

BW: Yeah.

CB: And so, it's a bundle of, okay, so if you're a brand-new landowner, here's some information that can get you started, right? I'm working on a resource list right now that just has some of the basic who to contact for things. You know, Texas Department of Agriculture does this, USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service does that, Texas Parks and Wildlife is this, you know, NRI is here, these are the tools they have available. These people have money, here's the websites. I mean, it's about as exciting as I can make a laundry list of contact info. You know but that's one of the first things is like, who do I talk to for what, right? And then I think there's another one… you know, part of my… another sincere belief of mine is that I'm in the expectation setting business, right? And so how can we set expectations for your land? You know, and for the people you engage with? You know, and how can we make sure that, you know, if I don't get back to your email in six hours, it's not because I'm ignoring you. It's not because I don't want to talk to you. It's just that answering emails is 10% of my job duties, you know? And it's a fun part. It's a part I don't mind. But it's just, you know, when I was in the county office, I got 1200 emails a month. Congratulations, it gets buried. You're never gonna hurt my feeling by just saying, "Hey, did you have a chance to see this?" Like, that's okay.

[51:56]  

CB: And then I think also in expectations, a big one for me is that you cannot rush biology. There's not… no amount of money in the world is going to make little bluestem grow faster. There's no amount of labor you can put in that will make soil just settle faster, or make your pond fill more quickly, or any number of other things and it's just patience, you know? And I think strategic patience is something that is also… a lot of our traditional clientele know, right? You know in the wintertime you take your time to you know, do the books, you have certain activities you do when you have downtime, and it's not just a hunt, you know pedal on the floor, “go, go, go” kind of thing. I think then we get into more of the what do I do? Right, what are these options in front of me? Well and that's where you peel off. It's like okay, look, well you know there's a publication that really needs to be updated on my to-do list, but it's called Conservation Ethics in Small Acreage Land Ownership or Small Acreage Livestock Options. You know, and things like that where, okay so now I can take a look at this and it's going to give me an idea of what's involved if I want to get into livestock production, if I want to get into growing a peach orchard, etc. Aggie Horticulture has some of the best like production guides for that kind of stuff and they do a wonderful job with it. And so, it's just being able to give those options and ideas, and then on the back end it's like okay well how do I do this? And that's where extension literature really comes in strong, right? Because the traditional extension publication is okay, you want to look at your weed control options in Bermuda grass pastures for broad leaf plants. Cool, we got a publication for that right? You know, you want to choose the best seeding practices using no-till drill applications with native grass. It's cool. We got you covered right there. And so, I think it's how do we build this, you know, almost like this conceptual funnel, philosophical funnel.

BW: Your upside-down triangle.

CB: Yeah.

BW: There you go. [laughs]

[54:15]

CB: Exactly, exactly. You know, it's not a pyramid. It's an upside-down funnel. But it's… but really bringing that initial connection in and then that way, you know, because one of the other big parts of my program that I encourage is just it's that independent reasoning, right? That critical thinking as a landowner. You're not always going to be able to call an office. You know, I was talking to one of the graduate students who was telling me it's like, “Hey, suddenly you know we bought this land and we have cows, then suddenly they were all calving, and we were watching YouTube videos because it was after hours. We didn't have the vet, you know we didn't have a vet lined up yet,” and so it was just like welcome to the rodeo. I mean and that's and you have to be able to understand that there's a lot of this that is self-motivated, self-managed, and, you know, kind of self-paced. And I think, again, I mean, I think that's a part of what makes landownerships so rewarding, right? It's not, you know, you're not being just given a functional property. I mean, you might be. If you do, then that's awesome. But it's more of like the benefits of the land and the conservation activities you put into it are a result of your labor and that's where again it's like that connection. Like you're connecting that passion to that outcome and you're doing it in a way that is you know enjoyable, and it meets your goals and it's you know connecting into this big picture of conservation. That even though you know your property may be managed for whitetail deer, but at the state level it's being managed for conservation. And the broad benefits that brings to everything from managing invasive species, water quality, soil management, all those big hot bullet point topics.

BW: I'm glad you described a little bit about how even if you own small acreage, quote unquote, whatever that might be, cause to me, you're talking about 20 acres. I'm like that's kind of substantial if you're trying to figure out how to manage it. I mean it doesn't I guess none of it, no matter the size, it doesn't manage itself, even if you just have a front and backyard. So, any amount of acreage that you can learn to steward, who you know, the land that you decide is going to be something that you take care of and you're going to try your best to do it to the best of your ability, taking advantage of the resources that are out there and the people like you who can help connect those dots. Any amount of effort towards conservation benefits the broader community and beyond that the broader state of Texas. So, like you're describing, it's… it may be white-tailed deer management but it's conservation on a state scale and that's huge. And when you talk about conservation ethic there are all these theoretical models that talk about, you know, conservation ethic is at the heart of this sense of identity that you are a landowner, and you own that and you're passionate about it and you're pursuing it. It's a part of who you are, and it has defined how you make decisions. This responsibility and the land stewardship that comes with that and then this idea of community attachment and acknowledging on every level that no matter the amount of effort, if you're putting in effort towards stewardship and conservation, it's benefiting people around you. And I know there are tons of other specialists that, and we've talked some on the podcast about ecosystem services and what the value of that is and trying to quantify that, when really, we understand in our heart of hearts, it's to benefit people for generations to come. And when you can just take that moment to have the conversation with someone like you to get strategic and figure out what's important and what you can continue to be passionate about. Because again, to another one of your points, it's not always easy. It's hardly easy, and I think that sometimes, you know for me one of the biggest payoffs is when we do have a good rain year. So, our family property is in the Hill Country. When it's dry, it is dry in all sense of the word dry. When we have great springtime rains or even late winter rains and you're looking at a field full of bluebonnets further than you can see and the oaks are, you know, swaying in the breeze and you just that sense of fulfillment is unmatched. And I think that one of the things that I've heard a lot from the students which is just I mean they're just surprising me all the time. They describe this spiritual connection that you just, I mean you don't experience in any other way in a sense of stewardship and that pride.

[59:03]

CB: There's a very there's a very I would say almost like primal level of satisfaction and contentment that comes from it, you know? And I think that really just… when you can find that and you can understand not just that it happens, but that you are working with the ecological context of your region and whatever you're doing. I mean, there's just nothing like it, you know? And one of the things that, you know, when you're talking about just, you know, earlier on, it's just like, take the wins where we get them. You know, if someone's doing good, recognize they're doing good. We will always have the opportunity to do better. Right? But when we're doing good, good is also still good. Good is not bad. I feel like, you know, this might be a very reductionist and like elementary kind of deal. It's like, “good is not bad.” You know, but it's also one of those, again, from a conservation perspective and especially, you know, when we look at this entire landscape and this entire trend of, you know, all these different things and some numbers go up and some go down and this is happening. I think that's where let's also remember, you know, we have, like you mentioned, like we have the quantitative value of ecosystem services. Let's also not lose sight of the qualitative ones. Let's not lose sight of the things that also motivate people. Everyone's different. Some are motivated by the dollar signs and the digits. Some people are motivated by the “feely goodies”, whatever you want to call it, and you know, many, most people are probably somewhere in the middle.

BW: [laughs] Right.

[1:00:41] 

CB: You know, it's kind of You know, I want people to feel good. But you know extension’s also my job. If I'm not helping you make money or save money or do what you're doing better, then why are you why did you show up to my program?

BW: Yeah, and you have to just because this is your job even though sometimes, I feel like it maybe doesn't feel quite like an 8 to 5, but you have to report certain metrics to define if what you're doing is successful. Do you want to talk some about that?

CB: Yeah. Yeah. So, and I would say, you know, the agency as a whole collects metrics, right? You know, and the fun part of the job is definitely the working with people and talking and doing stuff like this. The… I don't know very many people who get super jazzed about writing reports and, you know, after action reviews and your program summaries and everything like that, but you know a lot of it comes down to some of what we're legislatively mandated to collect. Which is, you know like butts in seats, how many people showed up, how many landowners did you interact with, how many hours was the talk, you know how many… you know, what was the breakdown of who was there. But really where, for me, where I start getting a lot of interesting stuff from is my program evaluations. And if any of y'all in the podcast have ever been to an extension program, there are two things that will happen with certainty. One, there will be a sign-in sheet. Two, you will have a program evaluation and they will probably hold your lunch hostage until you turn it in. But that evaluation is key, right? Like for me, you know, I have yes, I have these questions like, you know, how much did you, how would you rate your knowledge on, you know, sustainable grazing practices before the program, after the program, you know, one to five, one is bad, five is good, you know, and hopefully they start low and end high, or at least start high and end high, you know. If they, if they ever go down, usually I figure that I didn't think I did that bad of a job that people like unlearned something, but, you know, and then we have, you know, like intent to adopt so you might say oh yes I think I will probably adopt sustainable raising practices or I might you know I will definitely use prescribed fires part of my operation. But then on the back of it I always like to ask you know for those who are comfortable, none of this is mandatory right, you know but you know how many acres do you manage, do you live on your property, you know what's the zip code of your main residence? And then some demographic info, age, educational backgrounds, and stuff like that if they are able to provide it. And always have an open comment box section too, and there's all sorts of things people write in it. But it's one of those deals where that lets me know, one, how I'm doing just from a personal like education perspective, like, am I suddenly really sucking at talking about something and I need to fix my PowerPoint or did I misspell a word, whatever. But it's also okay. So then you can start separating trends out, right? You know, I got a set of program evaluations back and I could even just flipping through them. I could start seeing where younger participants were more likely to adopt these programs and report an increase in knowledge.

BW: Interesting.  

CB: Older participants maybe were less likely to adopt it or were more against that practice, right? And so, you know, those are the kinds of things that helped me figure out. And then from a broader scale, okay, well, how many small acreage people did I interact with? How many of them consider themselves small acreage by going to a small acreage program? Versus how many acres actually manage on average, the economic benefit of it, right? You know, if you go, if you come to my program and you manage 200 acres and you think that listening to my talk on small acreage brush management is going to save you $30 an acre, that's an economic expected economic benefit of $6,000 something like that. I, look. It took me three times to pass Cal one in undergrad, right? That… we have calculators for this and spreadsheets. But that's a, but it kind of goes into you know, what are the questions that need to be answered? And what are the questions? I mean, one, relevant to justifying my job, right? Not that I'm not that I'm ever worried about it it’s always nice whenever I just get to work another year.

BW: The demand is there. [laughs]

[1:05:05]

CB: Yeah, right. Um, but, but it's just a matter of like, okay, so who am I actually reaching? What are they actually learning? What are the practices they're actually adopting? Right? And so, these are these evaluations all get put together every at the end of every fiscal year, we have to get together program summaries. Okay, well, guess what? Chase Brooke, in fiscal year 2024 went through and did X number of programs and Y number of counties, held this number of specialists or program specialist led events, with this many people attended, they reported these evaluation outcomes to a total anticipated economic benefit of whatever. Period. Then talk about like of all the people who showed up to these small acreage specific programs. You know 40 percent managed less than a hundred acres. I'm just making these numbers up as examples, you know, and then you can start talking about how, yeah, and the people who mostly showed up, maybe they were predominantly women. Maybe they were under a certain age or over a certain age or fit other backgrounds and where their difference is based on region, right? Was East Texas going to have a different representation than West Texas or, you know, you might assume that maybe West Texas has a lot larger property sizes, but does that actually bear out in these evaluations? I don't know, I haven't crunched the numbers yet. But -

BW: That's interesting though, to be able to look at the data and ask different questions, and I think that that is the value sometimes of having something written down on paper, documented numbers, so that you're not left to kind of your own weird memory of, you know, the past year and your own kind of perceptions of who you thought you reached or what your impacts were, but to see that on paper and then to be able to act on it, it helps you be more objective. One as a scientist, but also as an extension professional, to be able to look at those numbers, take them at face value, and then to act on them and hopefully shoot to create an even bigger impact the following year.

[1:07:02]  

CB: Exactly. And I think it just further illustrates a picture, right? You know it's all about what is… what is this picture, what is this narrative, and how does it differ from reality, right? Like one of my big areas and like my research and things like that is just what are the things we look at every day and we don't question? And then how do we make those choices and what are they actually based on, right? Like I always love preaching, I love to preach the toddler method of land management. So, you know, when, whenever you're about to do something, you're just, “why?” Why? Why? Why are we doing this? Right? Is it, is it because it's based on a publication? Do you have personal experience? Did your neighbor recommend it? Did you just make it up out of thin air? None of those are necessarily wrong. But if we don't ask why, then we don't know why we do things. And if we don't know why we do things, how do we know that we're doing the best thing possible, right? I mean, that's how this whole deal with my research in brush piles got started is, I was like, okay, cool. Well, I wanted to write a publication about the best management practices for building brush piles. Cool. Go on the research. Wow, there's not a lot of anything. Okay, we'll start digging. Okay, well, I found some recommendations. Oh, what are call some agencies. Oh, what are these based on? Well, you know, it's a lot of expert knowledge and, you know, and then the more I started digging, I'm like, wow, we're recommending people build brush piles, which by the way, burning brush piles causes over half the wildfires in Texas. And we're basing this on an educated, a very well-educated personal experience from a lot of people. Like, wow. And I mean, from a research standpoint, I was like, okay, I mean, I can do that. I can burn brush piles for science. Like I'll measure them. I'll do whatever I need to do. Like that's, hell, you know, that's my whole dissertation. You know, but it's like, you know, that's exactly the kind of thing where, you know, why do we do things? Is this the best way to do it? You know, again, going back to that philosophical kind of question, but it's relevant to what we're aiming for.

[1:09:04]

BW: So, Dr. Brian Pierce, who works for the Institute, one of the things that I hear him ask most often is, "Have you asked why three times, and have you really truly gotten to the core of why we're doing some of these things?" And I forget that he says that until we get to that point in the conversation, and I'm like, "Oh, I know where we're going now." Every time never failed. But it's so helpful to... just be able to be reflective and to be able to take the information and experiences that you have but to continue to ask questions having that toddler mindset as if you've never done it before and it's a brand new idea. Why do we do it this way? But to your point I also think that that is kind of how a lot of new landowners walk into places. Why am I building a brush pile? And if you don't have the, I mean to me that would be a red flag immediately. I'm like well I don't really have a good answer for you other than that this is the way we've always done it. And that phrase in and of itself has probably killed more positive relationships and land management and land ownerships than anything else. Using that phrase “because we've always done it this way” to me is the opposite of progress, the opposite of learning, the opposite of trying to work with the land and contribute ecologically however you can. It's the opposite of that sound science mentality where you take applied research and the science that's on the piece of paper and you figure out what works so I really do appreciate that outlook.

CB: It's one of those things like just the way we've always done it doesn't mean it's wrong, right? It's just maybe we need to stop and reconnect it. We need to reconnect it back to that original reason why. You know and then just understanding was that original reason based on a factual perception? Was it based on scientific study? Was it based on a one-time event that we're never likely to see again?

BW: Right. Was it very contextual based? Yeah.

CB: And so I think, but I think that's those are all just yeah a little insight into what I'm thinking about when I'm on the highway.

BW: Your windshield time.

CB: My windshield time yeah.

BW: Dr. Roel Lopez talks about windshield time a lot. I want to ask you one last question.

CB: Okay.

BW: It has been amazing having you on the podcast and really just having a conversation with you. We've been working together I guess for almost two semesters now?

CB: Yeah, yeah. That’s about a year.

[1:11:28]

BW: Yeah and I don't know that we've ever had a conversation about what we work on with the class directly other than do you want to work on this together? And we kind of you know are working peripherally, so this has been really enlightening for me. It's been a joy to get to know you and to hear how you think and how you approach things. It's refreshing I think also and I hope that that for the land stewards who are listening, I hope that you find hope and joy in this too, like I do, because there are people like Chase who are out there specifically trying to connect resources for you so that you can steward the land to the best of your ability. So, my last question for you is, if you could provide one piece of advice for the land stewards who are listening, what would be that piece of advice?

CB: Ooh, all right, one piece of advice. What I would say, you know, to a beginning Land Steward or to someone who's just really looking for that, it's find your joy, find your meaning, do what you love. All right, I'm not gonna say the whole like, “oh, you'll never work a day in your life.” That's bull, that's a load of of crap. You're going to work like the Dickens and you're going… and it's in Texas so nine months out of the year you're gonna be sweating your butt off while you do it. But find that joy. I mean and one of the things just more like personal philosophy is when we look at life as in conservation it's… you know when we see everything going on, I mean we can either laugh, we can cry, sometimes I'm down for a good old cry session as much as anyone else. But by and large, it's, you know, let's try to keep a little optimism in it because it's very easy to get lost in the pessimism. And it's not always something that comes easy. But that perspective, you know, in terms of advice, in terms, you know, to, to land stewards, to professionals, to listeners. to whomever, the people I'm shouting out on the street, and I don't know. But it's just, we have to be optimistic because in the, in the jobs we work, in the roles we work, and if we were not optimistic that we could do better, we would not be working in conservation.

BW: Right.

CB: I mean, we work, like, I feel like so much of this, these jobs and this, these roles we have is predicated on the idea that you know what if we just try things can get better, right? And if we don't have that then that makes it really hard for us to bring that positive influence to let others do better. So, I'm not going to drop the mic because it looks really expensive.

BW: [laughs] It's also on a stand.

CB: [laughs] Yeah, I was not holding it.

BW: That is a really good note that I want to leave off on though, is that find that finding that joy and approaching land stewardship from your own perspective and the things that are important to you, because working your ass off for nine months out of the year in Texas for somebody else's dream is not going to get you very far. So, thank you for your insight.

CB: No, thank you.

BW: Thanks for joining the podcast.

CB: This was fun. If you ever need more philosophical ramblings for like an hour, you got my phone number.

BW: [laughs] Yeah, I'm excited for everyone to listen to this. I'm excited for them to glean what they can. I think you've shared some incredible insight into land stewardship not just for small acreage landowners either for anyone who manages or stewards the land, especially in Texas. This is all very helpful and just continues to, I would say, reinforce some of the ideas we have on the podcast and that we've shared is that there is a network of people out there that are waiting, that your job, your role is so critical, and I think is the sticky glue stuff that keeps us landowners and managers sane most of the time, I will say. So, thank you again for joining us on the podcast.

CB: Of course, I mean you sure know how to make me feel good about my job, dang, but no it was a pleasure, thank you Brittany.

[Outro Music]

CB: Okay, well they’re pretty close to goats so you can do about 5 alpaca per animal unit, right? Or about 500 guinea pigs if you’re curious.

BW: [laughs]