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[0:00—Intro]
BW: The Land Steward Podcast is brought to you by the Texas A&M Natural Resources Institute. We have relatable conversations and share helpful resources for land stewards like you—no matter how you relate to the land. So grab your hat and join us outside.
[intro music]
[0:27—Interview with Dr. Stephen Webb]
BW: Hi, and welcome back to the Land Steward Podcast. I'm your host BW and I'm ecstatic to be back in the booth with you today for episode one of season three. Today we have a seventh generation Texan with us, Dr. Stephen Webb, to talk a little bit about big game research. So, Stephen joined the Institute around 2021. And I remember that because he was one of the first people that came to the Institute after I came back from maternity leave. And I was fascinated to learn more about his research and to know that even as a native Texan, he still kind of got to travel around. to other states and do other work there. So welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Stephen, for coming by.
SW: Thank you, Brittany. Happy to be here.
BW: So, do you want to talk a little bit about how you came to the Institute and maybe some of the other states that you got to work in for a little bit before you came back to Texas?
SW: So, like you said, I'm no stranger to Texas. Yeah. Seventh generation, but after I left, I did make my way around a little bit. And so, I'll tell you a little bit about my journey and how I finally came back. I grew up in Round Rock, Williamson County. So, I know the podcast listeners should know a little bit about land trends and how rapidly that area is growing. So maybe I always had an urge growing up in the city, more of an urban environment, you know, to be outdoors, to be rural. And so there was a lot of things that drove my passion for wanting to get into wildlife. And the day I realized that you could make a career out of wildlife, I knew, you know, everything was over.
BW: Right. [laughs]
SW: That's where I was going and what I was doing. So, I made my way down to Kingsville to go to Texas A&M Kingsville. I got two degrees there, my bachelor's and my master's, studied white-tailed deer. Then I went to Mississippi to attend Mississippi State University, got my PhD there studying white-tailed deer. My wife also went there. And so, a little funny story there, she actually has a degree in range and wildlife management and then her master's in fisheries. And so we were supposed to tag team the wildlife fisheries world.
BW: [laughs]
SW: It's kind of what our plan was. And then from there we went to Wyoming. And I worked there for about two and a half years for a private natural resource consulting firm. And so, I've been in all different roles from academia to for-profit to non-profit. And so, I have a perspective on, you know, a lot of different things in terms of how research funnels through these different institutions and then what the primary goals are because we had different customers in different cases. And so, after Wyoming, we made our way down to Oklahoma. We're trying to get closer to Texas as you can tell.
BW: [laughs] Yeah.
SW: So, we spent some time in Oklahoma and like you said it was November 1st, 2021, uh was the day that was very exciting to make our journey back to to Texas and you know it felt like home.
BW: Yeah and I love that you use the word perspective in there because we talk about especially when we think about land trends, we talk about Texas as being this “test bed” for a lot of different initiatives but especially in conservation but you got to see what was happening in Mississippi and in Oklahoma and Wyoming so you did get to see a lot of different perspectives on the landscape, but then you got to be in different ecoregions so you saw the different priorities that maybe is different for Texas. But I do really want to talk a little bit about your big game research because you said one of your goals before you even started your career was white-tailed deer. You were into big game, that was… it was game over for everything else and I love the passion that you have for that it's very cool. So right now, when you think about big game research, has that changed from when you started out you know, is it… does it look different to you now?
SW: I guess when you asked me that question, “Do things look different?” No, they don't really look different. I focus on a lot more big game species.
BW: Right.
SW: White-tailed deer was my passion. That was my goal. There's just something about white-tailed deer. And I say they're the king of deer. And we have the reports to show how big of an industry they are in Texas and beyond. So, we can provide that to the listeners too. And so, you know, again, I like studying the “king of deer,” but I do study a lot more different species these days. That's not the only thing I focus on. Really what it comes down to is the type of questions, no matter what species it is. And I really like to study species that have an impact on the landowners. And a lot of the times the game species do mean something to the landowners. I mean, it's a source of income for many of them. And that's going to help keep the lands in their hands, keep working lands working.
BW: Yeah, yeah. And that's a good point, too. We have this trend this stat that keeps kind of evolving over time about the reasons why people own land especially in Texas and it used to be agriculturally driven for the most part that was their livelihood and then over the years we start to see it change into this this type of recreation. People wanted, you know, something different. They wanted to have a place where they could go whether they were hunters or not, but the big game species, especially in Texas, changes a lot about how they approach conservation and land management. So right now, what would you say are your like key species that you're focusing on?
SW: I wish it was more white-tailed deer –
BW: [laughs]
SW: - but it's not. But at least I got to study one of my bucket list species, and that was a subspecies of white-tailed deer, the Carmen Mountain white-tailed deer.
BW: Okay.
SW: So, a little back story, when I was an undergraduate at Kingsville, I got to travel to Mexico with one of my professors who was doing black bear research, and it was amazing. And so we were there for black bear research but the subspecies the Carmen Mountain white-tailed deer, I was mesmerized I was just like, “One day I'm going to study this species,” and so here we are many years later where I got to work with a good friend of mine in Mexico who had the connections down there, and we're we conducted the first GPS collaring study of Carmen Mountain white-tailed deer in Mexico. And what makes it even more special to him and I being friends is that I hired his son as a master's student to work on the project. And so, you know, what a great connection there is, two friends and then the son working on the project together. That was my primary white-tailed deer project that just ended. So, a little sad to see that one go, but it was just the start of much more to come. We also had a desert bighorn sheep project in Sonora, Mexico, and that one just came to an end probably a week and a half ago –
BW: Oh my gosh. Yeah.
SW: - where all the collars fell off. And so, a lot of these studies are winding down. One of the biggest studies we have going right now is a big javelina study all across South Texas - and when I say all across South Texas, literally we're across South Texas. I think we're working in 13 different counties across 200,000 acres or so. And so, that's the one that's taken most of the time and where most of the resources are going, but it's about time for the javelina to get a little bit more respect in terms of being a game animal in Texas.
BW: So, one of the cool things about working with Dr. Webb is that for the 321 class, the Communications and Natural Resources class that you guys have heard me talk a lot about, I have an opportunity to partner some of those graduate student teams with Stephen and his research team so that they can kind of get to know the things that are important to Stephen. They get some practice in writing the research publications and Extension materials. So, they get kind of firsthand experience in what it would be like as a day in the life of a research scientist. In one of the most recent semesters that we had, Stephen came to me and he said, “Well, we need to focus on javelina.” And I said, “Okay.” You know, I kind of started to hear more about javelina and management and some of the decisions that were being made especially in South Texas and how we approach understanding more about javelina. And I said, “Okay, so, you know, what's our focus here?” And he said, “Well, javelina is a big game species.” And he's the very first person that I had ever heard referred to javelina as a big game species. And I thought, “You're right. We do need to do more research on this and we do need to have more Extension products.” So, our students got to invest an entire semester learning from Dr. Webb and understanding the importance of sharing research-based information about big game species like javelina in South Texas so that our landowners can make more informed decisions about how they approach habitat management for species like javelina. One of the things that keeps coming up in a lot of these different studies no matter what species it is, is these GPS collars and the technology that you use. And I don't know, is that the same for javelina or is that what you're also using just for bighorn sheep or deer?
SW: We also use GPS collars on javelina. We tried some GPS ear tags.
BW: Okay.
SW: They're solar-powered GPS ear tags. But if you know, the behavior of a javelina and how much they like that thick South Texas brush cover, they're not going to get much sunlight –
BW: Right.
SW: - to where they're at during the middle of the day. And so, let's just say that we had to move to GPS collars, which were tried and true. And so, we trusted those and those are working phenomenally. And so, they transmit our data every hour. And so, we can see pretty much in near real time where these javelina are at. So yeah, similar technologies when we're talking big game. If they can, you know, wear a neck collar, then it's pretty much the same across those species. Some species are larger than others, obviously, because you didn't think javelina was a big game species.
BW: [laughs] Yeah.
SW: So, it's all relative. And so, the javelina is just not going to be able to wear as big of a collar. And so, we may be limited by weight in terms of how many batteries we can put in there and then how long that collar would function. When you think of other species that are bigger - elk, moose, even desert bighorn sheep - bigger body mass, they can handle a little bit larger collar and so, with those larger collars we can add some added features to it such as video collars, maybe.
BW: Right.
SW: Where we get some video footage so we're kind of sitting behind the scenes and whenever we get those collars in, we grab a bucket of popcorn, and we sit and we watch desert bighorn sheep videos.
BW: [laughs] Which is so cool. I think I've only seen one, maybe two clips and it is truly like you have fixed a GoPro to this collar on these bighorn sheep. You get to see what they see. You get to see their view first of all, but then you get to see where they go and how they navigate these crazy landscapes, and it's fascinating. Like you truly could pop some popcorn and sit back and just watch it all day long. It's amazing.
SW: Yeah. And hopefully we can talk a little bit more about bighorn sheep and some of the video footage. Cause like you said, it is amazing to see things from their perspective. When you see the landscape that they get to see every day and we're like, “Oh wow, look at this scenic view that they're seeing.” The fact that we found out how much they use caves during the heat of the day to thermoregulate, how do they handle some of the foods that they eat, the cacti, how they prepare it before they take a bite and things like that is just amazing. But back to javelina, we don't want to take anything away from the javelina –
BW: [laughs]
SW: - especially since javelina is finally getting some very, very much…
BW: Much needed attention. Yes.
SW: Exactly. That's what I would say too.
BW: [laughs] So, you know, you have these collars. First, can we talk about even in the big game species, but especially smaller game species like javelina, how exactly do you get the collars on them? Can you enlighten us in that process?
SW: That is where we actually get to go to the field.
BW: Yeah.
SW: So, people may think, oh, scientists, white lab coats, you know, in a lab, that type of thing. Well, our lab is the field.
BW: Right.
SW: We finally get to go to the field. So that's what we enjoy more than anything is because it's going to be time to, you know, go back to our roots of being a field biologist to know about your species. We have to set traps. We have to prepare all that type of stuff. And so knowing about the species ecology is going to help us with our whole process of capturing that animal, safe handling, and then doing the things that we need to do. So that's where we go out there. And depending on what type of species it is, it'll dictate probably what capture method that we use. And so you may have heard of helicopter net gun captures, you know, very popular and widely used for species such as white-tailed deer, especially if you've got any type of open habitat where you can actually fly and get that net on them. Dealing with javelina, it's a little bit different story. Like I said, they like that very thick brush. And so what we do is we attract them out of the brush and we entice them with a little bit of corn.
BW: Okay.
SW: And so, you know, they love corn. We're also finding that they love cottonseed.
BW: Wow.
SW: And so, we've actually switched our baiting to draw javelina in by going to cottonseed then it's eaten less by other species and so we've had much better success with cottonseed. That may sound crazy and so…
BW: Not at all!
SW: …but it works.
BW: Yeah! Okay cool.
SW: And so with… when capturing javelina, we use what we call “smart traps.” And so, I don't know, maybe on an earlier podcast with Jay Long, there may have been some discussions about capturing wild pigs and wild pig control and some of the traps that they use, talking about whole sounder removal in pigs. Well, we're using similar trap types where we can get the whole squadron in. So, when I say a “squadron,” that's going to be a group of javelina, what they're known as. So, we can basically get all of them into a trap. We watch it. We have an app. We get a live notification. We see what's in there, how many. We can time it to drop when there's two in there. We can time it to drop when the whole squadron's in there. And so, once we drop that trap door, they're calm. And then we wait until it gets dark. Most of the time it is dark by the time they go in. And then we have a specially designed chute that we attach to our trap system that we start funneling them into. And then once they're in the chute, a smaller area, then we have another way to, you know, narrow it down a little bit. And this is for safety of the animal and safety of us. And so we do immobilize the animal. That way, you know, we're basically putting them to sleep for a little bit. That way we can handle them safely. And so there was a big learning curve because there's not a whole lot of people that have done research on javelina.
BW: Right. [laughs]
SW: So big learning curves for all of us. And so very cautious with capture poles, welding gloves. If you've ever seen their canine teeth, their upper and lower canine teeth, and how sharp they are. Yeah, we were taking every precaution that we could to be safe. And so that's our chance to handle the animals. And whenever we do go to that level of investment of capturing an animal and the expenses and everything, we're going to take care of that animal. We're going to be safe. We're going to collect every piece of data that we can off the animals. So, we're collecting hair and blood and we're doing all kinds of health assessments on those animals. But that's also, too, when we put the GPS collars on, they fit very well. We put ear tags in there for visual identifications because we do survey for them, too. We survey helicopters, camera surveys. And so having those visual identifications on there help us, too, whenever we're trying to refine the methodology to survey for javelina, which is a whole separate issue in and of itself.
BW: Right, right. I feel like I could actually visualize that whole chute process as you were describing it, and I love that you brought up Jay's podcast. We have a PLS lesson that I mentioned to Dr. Webb earlier that tells you all of the biological differences between wild pigs and javelina. And I don't know if that one's in there, that the difference between a sounder and a squadron. So that's pretty cool.
SW: But speaking of squadron and your PLS lessons, you also mentioned the communications class. As part of that communications class that Brittany mentioned earlier, when we had students working on it, we actually developed a Javelina fact sheet.
BW: That's right.
SW: So, I would reference anybody to the javelina fact sheet just for some basic information about javelina. It's front and back, super short. It's got fun facts in there, but that's where we tell you what a squadron is. We tell you what a young javelina, a baby is called. I won't say it now because we're going to force you –
BW: [laughs]
SW: - to visit and go find that fact sheet which we'll put as one of the resources but there's a lot of interesting facts in there about javelina and that's been pretty well disseminated that we pass out at workshops, Extension events, presentations, you name it.
BW: Yeah, and how cool is that, that those students coming through that class, one, they get that kind of day in the life background from you. They learn from you. They learn the process. They learn what it's like to be a research scientist. Then they put together the communication materials, translating that science into real-world language and content. And then they get to actually walk away from that class almost as subject matter experts themselves. Now they have a whole other brain of information about javelina that they didn't have prior to that class. So, I know you also support lots of other students too in your work. And I know a lot of them have come through that communications class, but a lot of them are also on your research projects too, right?
SW: That's one of the things that I love the most is working with the students. So I was super excited to come back to the university setting. And one of the reasons is I know how much of an impact it had on me, especially the professors that believed in me and gave me opportunity and trusted me to do research as an undergraduate. And so that's what fueled my fire. I knew from my sophomore year that I was going to do research. It was perfect for how my brain worked, I think. You know, I needed challenges. I like numbers, all those type of things, too. But it wasn't just that. It's… I wanted to pay it forward, knowing the opportunities that I had and I was given. And so that's what I try to do for the students, too, is I try to actually give them something. I try to teach them something. I take the time with them and I invest my time in them. And I think they see it. And I think in return, that's when they do such an excellent job in getting out these Extension publications that we've done. I think just in a few classes worth now, I think we've gotten three fact sheets done, multiple Extension presentations. And so, you know, when they see that I'm investing in them, they you know, they reciprocate and they put everything in the have they have into developing something that's that's useful. And so, I work with a number of graduate students on projects like we talked about, white-tailed deer, desert bighorn sheep, javelina, there's turkey. I’ll work with you know other students too. Undergraduates - I try to get them involved with research. Advisor of the student chapter of The Wildlife Society, and so this next year one of our big focus areas is to increase the undergraduate research that we actually run through the student chapter of The Wildlife Society too, to start developing those skills because so many students want to go into graduate school and so the communications class putting together some of these Extension publications the background that you have to do on literature reviews, working with the scientists, whoever that may be to understand what's involved, it really helps them make a decision too on what direction they're going to go after they graduate.
BW: Yeah, they learn a lot about themselves during that process. So that's amazing, one, to have kind of this model idea of what it would be like to be a research scientist who invests reaches back invests in those students to then help them reach the goals that they have but again to be able to recognize those talents and those dreams that they have for what they want to do once they get out of grad school. I have used this comparison on a couple of other episodes but this is truly the Indiana Jones to me like the modern-day Indiana Jones of research you guys going out in the field and sometimes really miserable conditions, especially in Texas and even in Mexico, where you're in these landscapes that are not a vacation. They are habitat and selected habitat for a reason for a lot of these big game species. Can you talk a little bit about the data that comes out of all of that field work that you're doing? You get out there, you set the collars, you do your best to make sure that everything is set up before you hike back on out of there. What does that look like on the other side?
SW: That's why we try to maximize, like I said, because of the conditions. Maybe we just want to get out of there –
BW: Right. [laughs]
SW: - and get it over with.
BW: Survive.
SW: Yeah, and so let's maximize and get as much data as possible. So, when it comes to a lot of the the data collection devices we use now they they are so automated they are so advanced, it'll it'll blow your mind. And so, most of what I do I would put into what I call “animal movement ecology” or tracking type of studies and so we're putting some type of tracking device on there. The most common one that people have heard of probably is GPS - global positioning system – collars. They’re VHF collars - very high frequency. That's more manual tracking that you would have to go back in the day and listen to the beeps to pinpoint where that animal was at. Well, fortunately, we don't have to do that anymore.
BW: [laughs] Right.
SW: But because I've been there, I know what it's like and I know then the power of the GPS collars. So they're transmitting data to us in near real time, which is amazing. And so we can see what's going on there. If there's a mortality, they have sensors on them that can tell us that there's a likely mortality. And so we can go out there and we can try to investigate that as soon as possible to determine what the cause of the mortality is. These collars, and again, I refer to collars most of the time since that's what I use for tracking animals, they collect temperature. And so we got ambient conditions to see what microclimates and microenvironments that they're using. We have video that we talked about on the desert bighorn sheep. Unfortunately, we can't transmit the video to us either through cellular or some other satellite just because of the sheer size. So we sit there, you know, real anxious for about a year until those collars drop off and we get them back to watch the video. But speaking of collars dropping off, that's another nice feature. We only want to handle the animal once. And so, the collars we can program to fall off at a specified date or after a certain period of time. So, the collars will just detach from the animal. They'll fall to the ground. The animal's free of having to wear that collar anymore. We get a location to the exact location where that collar is, and hopefully it's that easy. We walk to that point and pick it up, but you forget like you, well, not that you forget…
BW: [laughs]
SW: …but like you said, some of the environments these animals are at, what they're using to stay safe is what we have to crawl through sometimes to go pick up that collar is their bedding areas, their security areas that we have to go to. And so then we can basically what they experience too and kind of think, you know, what track did that animal use to get here for us to be able to pick up this collar? What did they do afterwards? And so whenever we start seeing all the data, we can pull it in and it looks like points on a map. And so it's just a bunch of dots. They don't really tell you a whole lot when you're seeing a lot of dots on a map. And so that's when we get a lot more sophisticated in what we do to understand. How was the animal moving? Where was it moving to? And all those different types of things. And so that's kind of the culmination of the field experience, the trapping is whenever you start getting results. But there's still that big middle section that we're kind of going towards now in terms of what does the data mean? What does it really tell you? And then probably what's even more important than that for the land steward is how do I use the information?
BW: Right. So you're right. You get the data back and it tells you what happened and where maybe some of those things happened, but not necessarily the why every time. So that's kind of, it seems like that's kind of what you're digging into.
SW: Yeah, we get a lot of the what, the where, sometimes the how, those type of things.
BW: [laughs] Yeah.
SW: And so the easier questions to answer, we definitely get those. But at the end of the day, we still do put it all together for useful products for that land steward to be able to to manage and we can probably dig into specific examples of how research actually translates into on the ground action.
BW: Yeah, yeah. So, one of the things that you mentioned… as soon as those collars drop off, which I think is such an incredible feature when you're, I mean again, just to reiterate you're talking about wanting to handle this animal one time exactly but to have programmable collars that then drop off at a designated date, and then they lose their jewelry, and then they go on and live their life, and then you guys having to go out and retrieve these collars. For animals or species like the desert bighorn sheep, you're talking about miles and miles and potentially like 10, 20, 30 miles apart on some of them. How big are your ranges there?
SW: So, whenever we pick them up, they can be spread across huge study areas. And so, yes, some of our study areas are 10, 20, 30, 40,000 acres. The benefit is we know the exact locations.
BW: Right.
SW: We know the road systems. We're going to be efficient a lot of the times, especially in some of those areas, like you're saying, you know, mountainous terrain. And so there can be hiking involved with that, steep inclines, you know. Even in South Texas, the brush country, and so we're going to get as close as possible because when I said we have to crawl through the brush to find collars, we literally crawl through the brush to find collars.
BW: [laughs]
SW: So, we will be lazy and try to you know minimize the effort that we have to go to sometimes to pick up these collars but it depends on the species in terms of you know how big their ranges will be. And so, for the javelina project, like I said, we're covering 200,000 acres. And so we have javelina with GPS collars spread across those ranches. The javelina themselves don't have really large home ranges. We're probably talking in the range of about 300 acres on average from what we're seeing so far. So not especially large. But then when you have 150 javelina -
BW: [laughs] Right.
SW: - and you have to go pick up the collars, then it becomes a little bit more of a chore. So you kind of got to think about the number of animals that you have out there, the size of their range, the study area. We do run into logistical issues in terms of... animals the wildlife they don't they don't know political boundaries they don't know fences most of the time –
BW: I was gonna ask.
SW: - and so they're going to be crossing property boundaries and so we're going to have to contact landowners. We'll contact game wardens to help us retrieve collars and things like that too, and so there are logistical issues, it's not as simple as I make it sound of, “Hey, here's the site of that collar. Let's go pick it up.” There really is some planning involved and a lot of communication. But with that that communication and meeting those neighboring landowners, they become interested so quick in terms of, “Hey, I didn't know there was a javelina using my property that had a collar on it.” It's like, “Can you make a map and show me where it was at?” And so, absolutely. You know, we'll make them a map. We'll show them where that javelina was using. They become more interested. Before you know it, we have access to another study site. We have access to resources. They say, “Come trap here. We have a bunkhouse.” And so what we find most of the time is once people are a little bit informed and know what we're doing they… they get so interested especially when I can pull out my phone and say, “Let me show you where this javelina was last week because it was on your property,” and so they can see it near real time and so they're really amazed at what we can do with it. But I mean, when I mentioned the map and giving them a map that sounds so simple, yet that's something so special to them it means something and it actually tells them something too and we go way beyond of just giving them a map with the points on it where we can show them, here's the habitats that they use. Here's the likelihood of them being in one area versus another. And so those little pieces of the puzzle that we put together actually can go into their management plan for them to help determine how many acres do I need to conserve? How many do I need to restore? What do I need to do? Just leave it alone or what? And so we're starting to get all that information as all these pieces of information start coming in. But usually that's one of the first buy-ins that we get. It's just by seeing points on a map. And then when we show them what else can be done, then they really see the power of research and understand why research is important for informing our decisions.
BW: Yeah, and that in and of itself is a very powerful statement, just knowing how important and how critical sometimes that big game research, even with javelina, can help people make more informed decisions about how they manage certain parts of their property, but especially in South Texas where you have much larger land tracts running through there. And I like the idea that you guys have an opportunity to reach out and connect with these landowners because they have species on their property and because you have that data. I feel like sometimes that… especially in Texas, it's very unique to Texas, you know we're 95 privately owned and a lot of that land again is changing very rapidly so to be able to make a connection with private landowners based on research to me is like the heart of the reason why this research exists. And I've seen, I know that you and Kevin Skow, one of our, the NRI geospatial analysis analysts, he works on some of those maps for you, right? And he does some of the, I think at one point I might've shared a picture with you of a javelina that was on our property in Blanco County. Which has never happened to us before. We've had that property since 1854, first one we've ever seen. Well, I'll say, well, the first one we've ever seen, the first one we've ever caught on game camera. And I remember at the time you guys were working on maybe plotting out some different data points on a map. And I don't know if that was for a private landowner or just for your project.
SW: So, the map that you're speaking of was actually one of the students. It started in the communications class – the fact sheet. And so it was kind of a revised distribution map of the javelina. And so we pulled the historical map records to look at the distribution in Texas. Then we pulled any current data that we could find. A big place that we pulled data from was iNaturalist. And so, I know you shared the picture with me. I said, “Wow, that's amazing.” I think I looked it up. I don't know if there was anything in iNaturalist showing a javelina in Blanco County. And so I think I recommend it. Please –
BW: Yeah. Add it.
SW: - put that in iNaturalist because as you can see, we're pulling data from iNaturalist right now for some of these distribution maps. The iNaturalist data was used for other javelina analyses, too, across South Texas. And so we do use those data. We call it citizen science data. And so I say enter the data, especially if we're talking about javelina. Bastrop County, there's javelina. A lot of people don't realize that. I remember hunting in Gonzales County and seeing javelina there. And I was like, this is great, you know, because this is kind of right now on the northern fringe of the counties that they're using and everything too. And so there was not iNaturalist around whenever I saw those. That was quite some time ago. But, you know, to anyone that sees these observations and think they are unique. Just wanted everybody to know that there is a platform that you can use iNaturalist, and I'd say put it in there. But, you know, like you're saying, the maps are a start, and they can tell you so much, but, you know, they can become a great planning tool for prioritization of any of your range management practices that you may do.
BW: Yeah, on the NRI website, we have a map stored now that we launched earlier this year that has some of those maps that our GIS team has put together, but we just posted last week a custom map listing. So for those folks, landowners, private landowners especially, that are looking to create a map of their property so that they can have a different kind of view and then add data points to it as they can, it'll help inform some of those management decisions. So the power of visualizing data through maps, I feel like especially with your research, big game research is incredible for decision making and just data in general.
SW: The visualizations, the things that we can do with maps, and the things that go on behind the scenes to help make decisions. That's what we do a lot of the times as researchers. It's the stuff that you don't necessarily see, but the things that we do with numbers that really make things pop where you can see the trends.
BW: Yeah, and they create clarity, which sometimes, especially in land stewardship, there's a lot of... there's kind of there's a lot of those like three-pronged approaches. If I do this, then how does that, what is the domino effect of making certain land management decisions and there's a lot of especially as we think about intergenerational transfers on land in Texas and we're thinking about how these big game species move throughout the state and how that might change what the next generation of landowners decides to do, what their approach is on wildlife management and looking at managing for big game species. And so the data there, again, being able to visualize that data, bring clarity to what you're doing. I know that for me, seeing your name, I have Google alerts and Research Gate alerts for most of our researchers, our research assistants, and especially our research scientists. So I see your name come up a lot on those publications that you're putting out quite frequently on the data and the research that you guys have. And I think every little bit, every single thing that you publish just brings more clarity and better perspective for decision making, especially in the state of Texas.
SW: And, you know, to your point of publications and what you see coming out, there's different forms of publications, too. And so, you know, there's the science side that most people would not want to pick up and read unless they were ready to go to bed at night and fall asleep.
BW: [laughs]
BW: Stuff that's dry that only a scientist would want to read. That's kind of that translational aspect that I mentioned earlier is, you know, with the graduate students taking the communications class, they're going to translate the science into something that's more readily available to most people to say, here's what's most important. Here's the takeaway, here's what it comes down to, here's how you use it for example, and so there there's different ways of getting that information out there too. And so, I know working with the graduate students we try to put it in all different forms to trade publications. Some of our conservation organizations – Wild Sheep Foundation, National Wild Turkey Federation - we put articles in there that talk about the research that we have, but we do it you know, in a much more approachable way.
BW: Right.
SW: You know, like you said, visualization, the maps you know that tell the story and there's probably one example that I can really think of in particular where we're talking about maps and to get the point across. And so, it's a study that we refer to as the “deer hunter study,” and so this was conducted in Oklahoma. Very well designed and controlled where we had a had a private property where there were no hunters on one area, there was a high density of hunters, and then a low density of hunters. And so, we wanted to see how hunters influenced white-tailed deer behavior. So, the white-tailed deer had GPS collars on there. They were taken at one GPS location every eight minutes.
BW: Oh my gosh.
SW: So we really knew what was going on. And then when those hunters were out in the field, we sent them out with GPS units and we recorded their location every minute. So we knew pretty much where the hunters and the deer were at all times too. And so long story short: visualization. Going back to the maps to really show how quick deer learn, what the impact is of the hunters being afield. And so, the habitats that the deer typically chose before the season started before there was any hunters out there, it completely switched once the hunters were out there because hunters… they go to the same spots over and over.
BW: [laughs]
SW: So, they're creatures of habit. And so, the deer learned that real quick. And there was also some patterns in the hunters that we saw a lot of them like hunting closer to ponds. And so what did we see? The deer switched. They started avoiding ponds. They avoided roads. The deer started using certain habitats differently than they did before. It's because... hunters knew a little bit of deer ecology. And so they would try to get in the deer's backyard and go find those areas. And so the hunters that were a little bit more, you know, informed about deer behavior and ecology, we could definitely see those patterns. And so there were times too, like I said, when you have data every minute or every eight minutes to see what happens when a hunter comes into contact with a deer and then how it flees and escapes the hunter. We have animations of that too. So it's amazing the power of again, the visualizations to understand our impact as hunters on the game that we're after and so it really tells you you better be adaptive for one, and don't be a creature of habit because the deer are going to figure it out real quick.
BW: Right, right. So if you have a stand that's a permanent stand that may not be the best approach that's what you're saying. [laughs]
SW: They know the stand sites.
BW: They know!
SW: Pretty sure they're aware when you're there, not their senses are a lot more keen than ours are. So yeah, it would probably be a good idea to move stand sites for sure. But what I tell people, too, is the more time you spend the field, the more likely you are to have deer observations. And so I'm not going to limit my time when I go hunting. You know, I'm going to say I'm going to hunt any time I can. And I think just by spending more time in the field, I'm going to see more deer eventually.
BW: Right, right. Yeah, it's like when I tell my 8-year-old who sometimes has trouble getting up in the morning during hunting season, I tell him you have a 0% chance of seeing anything if you stay in this bed. [laughs] So, which usually gets him up, which is surprising to me, but he's starting to understand. But that, I mean, that's incredible. And I'm going to link that report or that study in the show notes for you guys so you guys can check it out. What is cool to me is that you guys have so many of these field experiences and so many of these different ways to portray what's happening in the wild and things that we just would have no other way of truly knowing without big game research. Like what you guys have invested so much time and so many years into. I do want to talk a little bit more about your javelina research though. So, you mentioned that you guys tried the solar tags and they are not a solar-friendly species. You mentioned that when you have to go and retrieve these collars, you're basically belly crawling through the scrub brush of South Texas. Is there anything new that you feel like has come out of those javelina studies?
SW: We are going to have a ton of new stuff.
BW: A ton. [laughs]
SW: And I say it as we will, just because we're about two years in of the field phase of things. And so it's a five-year project. And so we still have about a year and a half of really intense data collection going on. So some of the things that we're doing as part of the study - and I call this the Texas Parks and Wildlife study -
BW: Okay.
SW: - they funded it. And so they had several primary objectives. And one of those was to assess survey methods for javelina. So we’re assessing camera surveys, helicopter surveys, and they were also interested in indices such as roadside counts.
BW: So they wanted to know which survey you felt like was producing the most accurate data?
SW: So a couple of things. The landowners in South Texas there will probably be users of both camera and helicopter, so either route we're going to come up with probably the most appropriate methodology, the best way of doing things whether it's camera or helicopter. Whether or not you know helicopters the way to go. Some landowners just may not do that so at the end of the day we will have methods for for landowners to use for both the camera and the helicopter. And so we're trying to, you know, identify a lot of the stuff, like I said before, it's a lot of math that we're doing to find out, like you said, what's the best approach. And so, I don't know that we'll say it's the best –
BW: [laughs]
SW: - because javelina are so hard to identify, period, or to see from the air. And so I'm amazed at how few of detections, we call it, how few javelina we see from the air when we know they're there with GPS collars. I think we've seen one GPS collared javelina from our helicopter surveys.
BW: Oh my gosh.
SW: And so that's one of the biggest issues with the helicopter surveys is what we call “imperfect detection.” You're not seeing all the animals. And so that's what we're working towards too is what proportion of the animals are we seeing and how do we account for that. And so with the GPS collars out there, it's going to help us refine some of the helicopter survey techniques. Same thing with the camera survey. When they have tags on and things like that, we have different ways to account for what's known to be out there and what's not. So part of it is going to be the refinement of some of the survey methodology for javelina. But we are also looking into habitat use of the animals, what habitats are they using. We're pulling data from different sources, the GPS collars. We're using the citizen science data, like I mentioned before, from iNaturalist to identify the habitats. We're using data from cameras and using data from helicopter surveys. All that information adds up together and we kind of stack it on top of each other. And so we refine and we have more confidence in the results that we're getting to. And then we're doing a lot when it comes to the population ecology, population dynamics. I mean, that's the basis to a lot of what game management's about is estimating abundance. So population size, looking at sex ratios, or fecundity, so the number of offspring that a female has, all that stuff plays into, you know, a sustainable population for harvest. And so we're doing a lot there in terms of modeling, we have historic data that goes back to the early 70s from the Chaparral Wildlife Management Area. That's an amazing data set for any species.
BW: Right.
SW: But for javelina to go back to the early 70s, we're using all that data in so many different ways. And that's going to be the basis for a lot of our population models. And a big goal of that is to make a user-friendly tool where it's actually a website. And so you can go in there and a landowner can enter their survey data. They can keep track of harvest records. And then all that data is used. It's integrated together. It's all used together with a bunch of statistics behind it. And so that's what the user doesn't have to see. And so then at the end of the day, it'll do some forecasting for your population trajectories. It'll help you define harvest quotas, different things like that. And so, again, we wanted something that was for the landowner, something that was user-friendly, something we could put in their hands to manage a species versus just... Here's more science. Here's more data. Here's more results. It's information, you know, but how do I use it? You know, well, we did all of our scientific-y stuff. We did all of our math and statistics behind it. Now, here's something that, you know, can be simplified for you, and it's a decision support tool. It can help them make decisions.
BW: Yeah. So you mentioned the javelina project specifically is Texas Parks and Wildlife, especially having the historical data from Chaparral. Are there other partners, big game research partners, that you feel like have been absolutely fundamental to these new discoveries and new data that are helping land managers to make better decisions?
SW: If we're talking about the javelina project... I think everything hit at just the right time for javelina.
BW: [laughs] Right, right.
SW: We went like 30 years without much javelina research. You go back into the, dig into the literature and you'll see a lot of stuff coming out in the mid 90s or so. A lot of that research was done here too at A&M. And so there wasn't much done from then until now. And so then all of a sudden it's, here's this big project that I said, Texas Parks and Wildlife led the way of. There was other funding sources that came about and it's like, “Wow it's just like, this is the day for javelina,” it's just like here's another funding opportunity. And so we have another project that's way down in the Lower Rio Grande Valley where we're looking at stuff too, there was also some non-profit organizations that gave money, we had some conservation organizations they gave money to the project, there were internal monies that were available too, and so now we're probably looking at six different institutions agencies of some sort that are funding the bigger javelina research that's going on in South Texas. And so I say that's great because it basically went from nothing to all these efforts, all these people involved. And when you had talked about private landowners and Texas being a private landowner state, we mentioned the Wildlife Management Area and Texas Parks and Wildlife. But we're working on a lot of private landowner sites.
BW: Right.
SW: And they were involved. They were vested in this. That's their contribution to the project, too. So, again, they see the need for it. Research, period. Most of them understand the importance of it, at least the ones that we're working on too but to do something for the javelina to learn more, you know that's just another species you know, that they're looking to manage. Because a lot of these are good land stewards where, you know, they have cattle, but they also have wildlife, and so it's a balancing act across all those and so they they look for, you know, the the added complexity, you know, that they're feeling that they will of adding another species. To say, “How do I manage all this diversity knowing species have different habitat requirements and everything too?” And so again, it's about you know the the information that we give them and how do we prioritize what they do? And again a lot of that's done through what we call the spatial, I think you used the term geospatial earlier, so what we call spatial layers, maps, we're using some type of software to help add all that information together for them to develop a prioritization plan for certain species.
BW: Right, right. The collaboration, and I guess the depth of collaboration on these research projects is outstanding, in my opinion, and I hope that in the future, this is the direction that research can continue to go, that we collaborate with private landowners and with these other organizations who are just as invested as people like you are, who want to know how to make better decisions, who want to better understand wildlife across the state, for sure.
SW: And I think we have a lot of examples there…
BW: Yeah. [laughs]
SW: …where that really is the case. And so most of the time... people don't see the behind the scenes, really. And so there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes. The number of phone calls that we make with landowners, we get turned down sometimes too. But there are, for any research project, a lot of people vested in those research projects, people that you'll never hear of, know of, they're behind the scenes, they stay quiet, but they were a huge part of making it happen.
BW: Yeah, yeah. Well, I am immensely appreciative that you've shared your time, and just some of the ideas, and the background behind what you've done and your research, the investment that you've made in the students and in the wildlife species of Texas and beyond. Like that is incredible. Again, the model that you've talked about between collaborating between private landowners and organizations in the state, but also the model that you represent. Working with students and bringing students into the fold to see how research actually works from from day one when you're planning this immense trip, you get to be Indiana Jones for a little bit, and sometimes it's miserable and then you come back and then you work on the data, and you talked a little bit about what that statistical analysis looks like on the back end that, for the most part, we get to shield people from because it's probably the most intensive part of the outcome of some of the data that you're collecting. But again, I keep using the word “model” because I really think that your work represents some of the most incredible research that's happening right here in the state of Texas. And I'm immensely grateful that you're willing to share that with us today.
SW: Well, thank you. I usually take any opportunity I get to share a little bit, you know, even if it's just a story. You know, I mean, sometimes it may make a difference. I remember, you know, what influenced me. And so it was the things that drove my passion. And it was probably just a story.
BW: Yeah. Well, thank you again for joining us on the Land Steward Podcast.
SW: Thank you very much.
[49:03—Outro]
[outro music]
BW: Hey there, it’s BW. I just wanted to say thanks for listening. We are so grateful for those of you who have been with us since episode one, and for those of you who continue to join us every single month. We’re also really grateful for the experts and partners who come on and share an immense amount of wisdom for the land stewards in Texas and beyond. So, remember to subscribe to The Land Steward Podcast when you have a second and shoot us a note if you ever have any questions about the resources and research that we share right here on the podcast. Until next time, we’ll talk soon.